Low beam trouble…

[audiomick]

10 hours ago, Tennitragic said:

... if I swapped pin 86 wires on each relay, low beam began working correctly with ignition on and switches in correct positions! 
But…. high beam was then permanently on with ignition off! .

So your problem went with the wire, right?

Are those by any chance the green wires?

Just for fun, turn of the ignition and see if maybe there is 12V on the end of the wire from pin 86 that is causing the problem.

 

 

[Weegie]

Feel free to ignore, but looking at the pictures I haven't a clue what the PO intended

Rather than swapping wires around on the relays would it not be better to get some clue about the scheme?

I'd try to identify where the sources of the wires at the relay pins eminate from, identify them and sketch a diagram, to provide a starting point.

Possibly a source from the battery at each relay, ground(s), an input from the switch and one to the beams for each relay.

I'd also note any jumper wires on the relays and any wires which go from one relay to the other.

If the source points can be located, mistakes can be rectified, modified or a new scheme made to work.

I'm going to try and resist posting further as the last thing you need on this is another "cook to spoil the broth"

 

[gstallons]

This should have been mentioned at the beginning : after Weegie's epiphany , no one can help you with this until you find out what type of mods have been made to this bike's wiring . It appears that two relays are installed to control the headlight low and hi beams. W/O a proper wiring diagram no one can help you . Was this like this when you purchased the bike or did you do this work ?

[Tennitragic]

Just confirming again….bike arrived with these mods and faults - front brake light plus low beam not working.

The brake issue was just a loose pin on the micro switch and easily fixed with help from posts on this forum. Low beam fix more troublesome….
audiomick - I will do as you say and check the pin 86 voltage, ignition off.

Weegie and gstallons - good idea to do a wiring diagram. Was initially thinking this ‘extra wiring’ was “a pack of poo tickets”.  But also thinking the wiring with 2 extra relays could be a common improvement for poor headlights, familiar to many forum members who may guide me to the solution. Only now do I realise the mods to my Tenni’s wiring are likely more bespoke! Regards, tennitragic.

 

[audiomick]

3 hours ago, Tennitragic said:

audiomick - I will do as you say and check the pin 86 voltage, ignition off.

Yeah, do that, mate.

 

I'll pull up this post again to explain why

Sorry, bye the way, that this will probably also turn into a long post, and it is still speculation.

Looking at the picture of the battery, there are two green wires and two red ones, all with the same type of connector. They are all definitely not original, and I think it is fair to assume that they are likely to have all been fabricated in the course of the one modification. The works seems fairly competent. All the crimps are pretty neat, which takes some practice.

So if the bloke had green and red wire in stock, why did he put one green to minus, and two red and one green to plus? Someone with a bit of competence would normally use the red for plus and the green for minus, I reckon. The one green on plus bothers me quite a lot. I can't really believe that it is right.

Those four wires, two red and two green, would correspond well to the bloke having run two wires to the new headlight relays as the new power supply (to be switched by the relays), and two wires back to the battery as new "earth" wires for the coils in the new relays. According to "convention", the power to the relays would be the red ones, and the green ones the "earth" connection back from the relays. In which case both green wires should be on the minus pole.

At the other end, the new relays, your photos show green wires on what is most likely pin 85 or pin 86, the two ends of the coil, referring to the diagran that Weegie posted, and which is also in that post. Going by your descriptions, the bloke used the original power for the headlight to switch the new relays, the conventional solution, so the other end of the coil needs to be connected to battery minus.

Also, your photos show a red wire on the pin on the relays that is most likely pin 30, ie the connector to which the power which is to be switched by the relay is to be connected, and which would come directly from battery plus.

So two red wires from battery plus to the new relays, and two green ones back to battery minus.

Further to that, I discussed your problem with a colleague of mine who is a trained electronics technician (I'm a sound engineer, by the way...), and he concurred that what I suspect is at least feasible.

 

Sooo, the reason for checking for 12 V on the wire from pin 86 that seems to be causing the problem is to see if it might be the green wire that is coming off battery plus.

I'm not saying for sure that that is the case, but everything you have described is at least consistent with that, even if it is not conclusive evidence.

It's all a bit of a shot in the dark, but easy to check and exclude as a possible explanation for your problem.

 

PS: if there are 12V on the wire, follow it back manually, or disconnect the green from the battery plus and measure continuity from one end of the wire to the other to make sure it really is the same wire (measure ohms or use the continuity beeper on the multimeter).

NOTE: Always disconnect everything from the minus terminal before you start messing around with the electricals.

Obviously the battery needs to be connected to see if 12V is arriving where it should. The thing is, when the minus is connected, the entire frame and engine and gearbox is connected to the minus, so if you accidently contact the frame when you are working on the plus pole, it will cause a short. If you disconnect the minus first, you have to specifcally make contact with the minus to create a short.

That's enough for now. If what I suspect is true, you most likely have a high resistance short to the frame or something somewhere in the wiring loom, but we'll get to that if it turns out the one green wire really should be on minus instead of plus.

Edited February 12 by audiomick

[Tennitragic]

Thanks again audiomick….I have investigated the wiring and done a first draft of previous owner(s) wiring modification……this is messy so will do another to send to the forum.

Should have done this days ago with the benefit of hindsight as the mod appears unfamiliar to you guys.
Of note, with the ignition off, pin 86 on low beam relay zero volts and pin 86 on high beam relay 13 volts.

 

[docc]

Seems the relays are just not connected correctly.

What if the green wire to the battery positive was removed?

 

[audiomick]

22 minutes ago, Tennitragic said:

... with the ignition off, pin 86 on low beam relay zero volts and pin 86 on high beam relay 13 volts.

 

On the pin on the relay, or on the (green?) wire that was connected to the pin?

Either way, I reckon that's wrong. They should be the same, at least, I would assume.

[docc]

Take that one green wire off the battery positive and report back . . .

[Tennitragic]

Thanks to all. Wiring diagram of extra relays below….is this ok?
To answer audiomick…86 pin on the relay has 13 volts with ignition off.

To docc….will go back to garage in about 1 hr, disconnect green wire from positive terminal and report back…

Like ‘many’ have been saying…even to this novice…why have the same colour wiring to both battery terminals?
Regards, tennitragic

 

 

[Tennitragic]

Sorry fellows…losing the plot, ignore first wiring draft…both added red wires attach to positive battery terminal.

Might have been on this job too long…! 

[audiomick]

@Tennitragic Beauty mate, that's exactly what I thought you'd find (at least, the second picure is.. )

The green wire from battery minus to the one pin 85 is definitely wrong.

It is electrically wrong, and explains why you are seeing 13V with ignition off on the 86 of that relay, which shouldn't be the case.

 

When you take that green wire off the positive, I'm confindent that you could hold it to the minus and see what your lights are doing then. I reckon they should work normally.

 

As I mentioned further up, there would still remain the suspicion of a high resistance short to "earth" in the wiring. That would explain "lights on with ignition off", and would provide a reason why the bloke added the new relays in the first place. If it's there, the lights would have been a bit dim. But finish off the first bit first.

Edited February 12 by audiomick

[audiomick]

32 minutes ago, audiomick said:

you could hold it to the minus and see what your lights are doing then. I reckon they should work normally.

@Tennitragic On second thoughts, don't do that. It's safe enough for someone with a bit of practice messing around with electricity, but if you fumble, you might get sparks.

So

Green wire off the plus, and tuck it away from the battery.

Confirm for certain that the "lights on with ignition off" thing is not happening anymore.

Connect the green wire to minus and check your lights.

Report back, and we'll take it from there.

 

PS: just so you know, the suspected high resistance short to earth is something that should be addressed, but is not immediately critically dangerous. Assuming it is there, it has been there all the time, and the bike hasn't blown up yet.

Edited February 12 by audiomick

[Weegie]

The bar switch provides positive voltage when the beam is selected

I think the Lo Beam relay is wired correctly (although why he wired back to the battery on the coil side seems OTT)

The Hi Beam has a Positive from the battery (85) and (86) is wired to the bar switch, this where things go awry and probably accounts for the wierd behaviour of the beams with ignition Off. The battery will be backfeeding positive voltage into the switch (it won't do any harm but probably result in wierd behavour). 

The Hi Beam Green wire to (85) should be connected to battery negative

I apologise to @audiomick if that's what he stated in the previous posts, I just couldn't understand, which says more about me than him 

You could wait for another member to confirm, no harm on a second opinion

 

[gstallons]

Is relay 2 still in the relay gang ?  r1 start r2  headlight r3 sidestand r4 ECU r5 injection and are ALL fuses in place and are good ? 

As mentioned earlier , pin 86 (normally) goes to ground , ,pin 85 to switch , pin 30 to b+ and pin 87 to headlamp dim or bright . You are using two relays for this purpose .    

If this is wired into the factory wiring correctly , all relays are in place  and fuses are good ,

it should be working. 

Edited February 12 by gstallons