Low beam trouble…

[audiomick]

1 hour ago, Weegie said:

... The switch gets power from the Headlight Relay, this also feeds to the horn, so the horn should work when the beams do.

That should be true, I think, but the headlight relay should get the power directly from the battery. Look (again) at the diagram I posted here. It is allegedly for the models from 2001 - 2003, so it should be right for a Tenni, I think.

 

 

Anyway, regarding this:

1 hour ago, Weegie said:

....Is it upside down?

Is that the headlamp shell?

What is that relay next to the shell which has a number of spades attached to it?

Could it be that a previous owner has installed a relay mod (makes the beams brighter and takes the load off the switch), by running a feed from the battery?

The first two, yes, that appears to be a photo of the headlight shell, and it is upside down.

I reckon that it is a fair assumption that someone has modified the wiring and added a further relay. There is nothing like that construction behind the headlight of my 2002 Le Mans, which I believe should be electrically the same as a Tenni. Also, the green and red wires in the picture seem to be thicker than any I have seen in that area of mine, and the spade connectors with the blue boots are, as you commented @Weegie, not original.

I'd say someone's been at it, and @Tennitragic probably has no option other than to follow the wires and find out what's been done.

Edited 16 hours ago by audiomick

[audiomick]

A thought occurs to me: maybe the mod has more to do with the starter circuit than the lighting.

 

The V11 is prone to what is often referred to as "startus interruptus", i.e. when one presses the starter button, one is rewarded only with a click from the solenoid on the starter motor. The cause is insufficient power to the solenoid to pull it in properly.

This is a problem that not only the V11 models suffer from. The common solution is to feed the starter solenoid directly from the battery, i.e. the power feed to the starter relay and from there to the starter solenoid, which is switched by the starter switch, directly from the battery.

That is how I solved the problem on my Breva 750 i.e., but it is not that simple on a V11.

The starter relay is of the type that has both a normally closed and a normally open contact. In the "resting" position, the normally closed contact feeds power from the ignition switch to the lighting relay, thus holding the lighting relay closed, i.e. "switched on", thereby feeding power through from the battery to the headlight.

In the "switched on" position, the normally open contact of the starter relay is now closed, thereby taking the power away from the lighting relay (good plan, the lights go off when the starter is engaged) and feeding it instead to the starter motor.

This means, if one were to feed the power to the starter relay directly from the battery, the lights would be one all the time because the starter relay feeds the power to the lighting relay in its "resting" position.

Therefore, in order to supply the starter solenoid with power directly from the battery, it is necessary to add another relay for this purpose. There are some threads here on the subject, which one might be able to find by searching "sixth relay" or something like that.

 

So, to cut to the chase, maybe someone has done that modification and mounted the additional relay up near the headlight.

 

I would have tried to integrate it into the row of original relays, not hard with the right parts, but not everyone is as much of a perfectionist as me.

[docc]

4 hours ago, Weegie said:

What is that relay next to the shell which has a number of spades attached to it?

Could it be that a previous owner has installed a relay mod (makes the beams brighter and takes the load off the switch), by running a feed from the battery? 

If that relay is utilizing the normallly open and normally closed contacts to power the beams from a direct battery feed, then wierd shit may well occur.

The connections to that relay and the fully insulated spade connectors aren't OEM, hence my rather frayed reasoning. I'd also check the connections on these fully insulated spades, anecdotally, I've had rather chequered results with them and they can come loose over time

Otherwise just ignore me, as I could well have totally lost the plot

Bingo, @Weegie! Good catch!

Modified wiring to be investigated. Or bypassed.

My Sport used to have added relays for the headlamps. The better solution turned out to be a "VintageCars" LED.

[Weegie]

I could be totally wrong guys and it's a mod for "startus interuptus" as @audiomick suggests

Just when I saw that relay sitting on the bucket it occurred to me that somebody had modified the wiring and I was having difficulty understanding the strange flip flop of Lo & Hi beam illumination in two distinct scenario, especially with the ignition off.

Perhaps I'm looking at a diagram for another V11, the one I looked at has the power going through Headlight Relay, Starter Relay and Fuse 5, apart from the switch. So I thought it could be a canditate for modification with a relay and power taken directly from the battery, which would also explain the Lo beam energising with the ignition off. If it was wired direct from the battery and the relay was de-energised for Lo Beam then it MIGHT explain it.

Depending on the scheme you'd possibly need ignition on to energise the relay so in that case Lo Beam would work but nothing else.

However it's mere supposition and more akin to a guess than logic, it was just a suggestion that the wiring needs investigation.

I've been wrong before  

[audiomick]

Just to verify, I took a couple of photos of the back of my headlight when I was in the garage earlier today. Not good pictures, I'm afraid, but I was suprisingly unwilling to take off the fairing just to get a better photo...

 

[docc]

2 hours ago, Weegie said:

Perhaps I'm looking at a diagram for another V11, the one I looked at has the power going through Headlight Relay, Starter Relay and Fuse 5, apart from the switch. So I thought it could be a canditate for modification with a relay and power taken directly from the battery, which would also explain the Lo beam energising with the ignition off. If it was wired direct from the battery and the relay was de-energised for Lo Beam then it MIGHT explain it.

Depending on the scheme you'd possibly need ignition on to energise the relay so in that case Lo Beam would work but nothing else.

However it's mere supposition and more akin to a guess than logic, it was just a suggestion that the wiring needs investigation.

I've been wrong before  

That sequence is my understanding of the factory circuit.

More likely that whoever wired that headlight relay cocked it up . . .

[audiomick]

@Tennitragic Mate, can you show us a photo of your battery, paying particular attention to the situation around the + terminal?

When someone buggerises around with the electrickery, the battery, particulary the plus terminal, generally acquires additional connections. A photo would probably allow some knowlegable member here to further confirm that someone has "improved" the wiring.

Edited 10 hours ago by audiomick

[docc]

41 minutes ago, audiomick said:

@Tennitragic Mate, can you show us a photo of your battery, paying particular attention to the situation around the + terminal?

When someone buggerises around with the electrickery, the battery, particulary the plus terminal, generally acquires additional connections. A photo would probably allow some knowlegable member here to further confirm that someone has "improved" the wiring.

Great idea - some underseat images . . .

[Tennitragic]

Once again, thanks to all….I think collectively you are getting to the nub of the issue. Apologies, my photos were compromised trying to wiggle an iPad (upsidedown…?) to take the shot and then deal with photo size! Re-sized some photos and took a few extras….
Headlight is right way up as best I can tell but please let me know…..the old rusty headlight was the same orientation.

Underseat photo showing the “pack of poo tickets” especially the positive terminal. My thoughts the same as other members in that a previous owner had not only fitted a trickle charger but extra green/red wiring between battery and the 2 extra relays. And decided best place for extra relays was the headlight shell. I am assuming that this endeavour was an older solution to common electrical issues mentioned in earlier posts on this forum regarding improving the main lights and maybe starting?
As before, I was not keen to start ripping in to the wiring early-on, assuming the bike had not previously fallen into bodgy hands…..and other owners treasured the bike like I will and ‘did their best to improve…’ But prepared to spend time and money (probably getting beyond my skills and pay local specialist Guzzi person) to rectify if you guys think it looks really bodged….cheers.

[docc]

That really does not look like a bad attempt at adding headlight relays. This was not about starting, but taking load off the substandard relays the early V11 were delivered with along with numerous marginal attempts to fit actual High Current micro relays. Problem since solved.

It is likely one of those added relays is low beam and the other is high (easy to verify).

It is *possible* one the added relays is for the start circuit, but also fairly easy to see if any of that wiring is on the "start" side, not lights.

Those "packs of poo tickets" would certainly benefit from a thorough cleaning, treatment  (DeOxit?), and tightening. Curious how that, alone might affect the behavior . . .

 

[audiomick]

2 hours ago, docc said:

Those "packs of poo tickets" would certainly benefit from a thorough cleaning, treatment  (DeOxit?), and tightening. Curious how that, alone might affect the behavior . . .

Indeed, that should be done.

2 hours ago, Tennitragic said:

 if you guys think it looks really bodged….

There has, apparently, been some extensive and maybe "creative" mods done to the wiring. The photo of the battery makes it obvious. Interesting, that there is a green wire coming from both the + and the - terminal. I would have tried to keep the colours seperated.

Anyway, what has been done doesn't have to be bodged. It might make sense, or it might not. The thing is, I can't imagine that a previous owner took the trouble to make all the changes an not have had it working. So your problem is most likely the same as if it were all original: it used to work, and now something is broken. Most likely either a bad connection somewhere, or several, or/and one of the relays is not doing its thing.

Which brings us back to the multimeter. Follow the volts from the plus side of the battery, measure the resistance back to the minus ("earth") side, and make sure that components that should be switching something really are doing that, i.e. measure Ohms across the switch contact, activate the switch, and see if the circuit is being closed.

 

PS: write it all down as you go. When you have a record of the modifications, and when you have it all working again, you can go back an think about whether the mods are all sensible, or whether you want to change something. Like I said, it might all make sense.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by audiomick

[audiomick]

2 hours ago, Tennitragic said:

Headlight is right way up as best I can tell but please let me know…..

Yes, it is. The "upside down" was only referring to one of the photos further up. The things in the photo weren't upside down, but the photo itself is.

Edited 3 hours ago by audiomick

[po18guy]

That battery. I know it is the compact anrdor lightweight lithium, but what is the rating in CCA? If not somewhere north of 200CCA, it might not have the reserve power you need. Normally the batts lie down, terminals to the rear.