Low beam trouble…

[gstallons]

The relays that are identified in the pic have 30 85 86 87 & 87a on the terminals .  Wired normally 30 is b+ and 87 goes to the load .87a is the terminal that the power goes to when the relay is not energized . Terminal 86 is ground and terminal 85 is the switch power to turn on the relay. This is in most cases  I have seen terminal 87 have b+ and 30 go to the load. Also 86 and 85 can be reversed. Why these are reversed on these terminals , IDK . Read / understand your wiring diagram(s). I spent 3hrs on top of a D-10 diagnosing a problem because my dim supervisor wasn't smart enough to print a wiring diagram for me. 

Now for the lesson . Some relays have a diode or resistor in parallel w/the coil in terminals 85 & 86 . The diode is polarity sensitive , the resistor is not.  The diode is there for when the magnetic field collapses and sends the voltage spike to ground . This v spike can be up to 50v . As you know ,you do not need this much v going back into your sensitive PCM . Why  30 & 87 are reversed , IDK ? Same as 85 & 86 .

 W/all this being said , get familiar w/ DC , wiring diagrams and the trinkets you add on . BTW , get rid if the bullet connectors. Spade terminals for them and put connector grease in them. The relay connection , install a proper relay connector that you can plug the relay into. You pulling these off one at a time in the dark w/it raining might become difficult. Buy good stuff and do a professional job . If you had a watercraft or aircraft , you would NOT want Cooter going to WalMart and putting  parts on your stuff .

[Weegie]

8 minutes ago, gstallons said:

The relays that are identified in the pic have 30 85 86 87 & 87a on the terminals .

We must be looking at different pictures

The two pictures I looked at clearly had 2x 87 terminals, the diagram on the relay also showed a common bar between them. Indicating normally open and commoned together 

I can see neither a normally closed terminal on the relay schematic (printed onto the side of the relay) nor 87a printed on nomenclature on the Bosch relay

I'm starting to doubt my sanity

I'll get ma coat

[docc]

4 hours ago, Weegie said:

We must be looking at different pictures

The two pictures I looked at clearly had 2x 87 terminals, the diagram on the relay also showed a common bar between them. Indicating normally open and commoned together 

I can see neither a normally closed terminal on the relay schematic (printed onto the side of the relay) nor 87a printed on nomenclature on the Bosch relay

I'm starting to doubt my sanity

I'll get ma coat

This is the image, albeit inverted, with the printed diagram showing two 87 terminals. A later image reveals there are two of these relays added, likely identical (?) . . .

 

Edited 20 hours ago by docc
[edit: removed incorrect statement to avoid contributing to confusion. Thanks audiomick for the clarification!]

[gstallons]

I should have looked THOROUGHLY before I rambled on. 

 Yes this does have a relay that turns on both 87 terminals when turned on . to power both terminals . Be careful when replacing this to use THIS style only .  IDK if this has a part # on the relay or in the paperwork ?

 Ya learn something new every day .

[Weegie]

No problem & must admit it's unusual to see a relay with 2 normally open contacts and I've never came across it before

The normal method to indicate a normally closed contact is on the other side of the switch with 30 being the common, standard nomenclature is 87a to denote a normally closed contact

So I did a bit of googling I think the relay is a 332 018 150

Here is a diagram from a 332 019 150, it clearly has 2 normally open contacts

https://alvadi.md/en/item/bosch-0-332-019-150

[audiomick]

3 hours ago, docc said:

... and 30 is NO.

No, 30 is always the feed in direct from battery plus, whether it is a relay or some other component.

The numbers were first defined in a DIN, of course. Very German thing to do...

It is not as confusing as it appears at first glance. The numbers are more or less arbitrary, there is no particular system that I can identify other than that numbers that were established in the same "run" are often sequential, like the 85, 86, 87 on relays.

The only point of it all is to have a number on the pin that is standarised, so that everyone knows what the pin is for without having to open the component and have a look inside.

I just found a listing in English:

https://automotive.wiki/index.php/Terminal_Designation

 

EDIT: bugger, I've just noticed the list isn't complete.

2nd Edit: Wiki to the rescue!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_72552

and just for the hell of it, in German...

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klemmenbezeichnung#Liste_der_Klemmenbezeichnungen_in_Kfz_und_ihrer_Bedeutung

Edited 20 hours ago by audiomick

[audiomick]

5 hours ago, gstallons said:

 W/all this being said , get familiar w/ DC ,...

Yes.

@Tennitragic perhaps it might help to not lose sight of this thought: The circuit may look complex on the wiring diagram, and in fact practicality determines that there are connections between wires that don't always immediately make sense,

but

The circuit always can be reduced to nothing more than a feed from the power source (battery plus), a load, and a line back to the "other side" of the power source (battery minus).

There is nearly always a switch in there too, which can be on the way from battery plus to the load, or on the way back from the load to battery minus.

One case, for instance, of a circuit without a switch is a particular pin on the ECU that gets permanent 12V from the battery, which is why the battery goes flat if the bike isn't ridden for several weeks.

The confusing connections on the wiring diagram are generally nothing more than common feeds of battery plus to various parts of the loom, and common "earth connections", i.e. back to battery minus.

Bear that in mind, and the wiring diagram will make sense.

Edited 20 hours ago by audiomick

[gstallons]

I think I have crossed this path before w/this style of relay , IDK . My memory is good or bad or both .   

IDK what the wiring diagram is on the application . I could blabber a little better then.

In Europe this is in concrete . I was composing / making some drawings to make things absolute. Guess what , sometimes 85 & 86 are opposite , where 85 is switched b+ and 86 is - they can be changed to 85 - and 86 is switched b+ . Keep in mind a diode in the relay might not like this.  Same with 30 and 87 . Instead of 30 being b+ and 87 is the load , 87 is the b+ and 30 becomes the load.  

This source of the diagram I referred to is from a Ford wiring diagram ca. 1999-2000 F-series electrical manual. Here , everything is a case by case situation.  Like the Cat dozer I was telling about earlier. 

[audiomick]

9 minutes ago, gstallons said:

...  Same with 30 and 87 . Instead of 30 being b+ and 87 is the load , 87 is the b+ and 30 becomes the load. 

Yes, that would work of course. The two pins are simply the two ends of the switch. The main argument for sticking to the convention in that case is so that the next person who works on it knows without checking which wire is hot.

[docc]

Regardless of the relays, how could the low beam come on with the Ignition switch "off" unless the switch were faulty?

[audiomick]

@docc very good question.

What occurs to me is that possibly one or more of the myriad spade connectors has landed on the wrong terminal. To be honest, I can't easily imagine what could go wrong inside the ignition switch to cause the described effect, but who knows. I'm not saying it is impossible.

A couple of questions for @Tennitragic, because I can't recall you having commented on these points:

Was the problem there when you bought the bike, or did it just turn up out of nowhere when everything had previously worked, or did you do some work on the bike after which the problem turned up? If it is the case that the problem turned up after you worked on something, what did you do exactly?

Once again, I'm more and more of the opinion that the solution is only going to become clear when all the "custom" wiring has been traced back to see what has been done, and how it is all intended to work.

Edited 17 hours ago by audiomick

[gstallons]

2 hours ago, audiomick said:

Yes, that would work of course. The two pins are simply the two ends of the switch. The main argument for sticking to the convention in that case is so that the next person who works on it knows without checking which wire is hot.

You ought to be the dumba$$ that finds these things out !

[gstallons]

The D 10 Cat dozer was one example . 85 & 86 had opposite tasks than normal and I was up on top of that dozer for 6 hrs trying to fix the condenser fans .

[audiomick]

2 hours ago, docc said:

 how could the low beam come on with the Ignition switch "off" unless the switch were faulty?

Another thought: what if the two relays on the headlight shell, presumably one for high and one for low beam, are different, and the low beam one has the load (low beam) connected a "normally closed" instead of a "normally open"?

That would do it, I think.

However, looking closely at the photos, it seems likely that they are both the same type. Which leads me to a further thought:

In this photo, we can see two green wires coming from the battery, one from plus, and one from minus

and in this one, assuming the two relays are the same type and mounted the same way around (it looks like they are), on both of them a green wire on the same terminal of each. So what's going on there?

Going by the diagram that @Weegie posted further up, that might be 85 or 86, in which case it might not be relevant (works both ways, assuming there is no diode in there), but it seems odd to me. Or at least sloppy.

 

Edited 16 hours ago by audiomick

[Tennitragic]

You guys are unbelievably knowledgeable on these electrical matters…! Having a look this morning at your responses and the bike….hopefully answering a couple of your questions…

Low beam and front brake were not working when bike arrived. Maybe disturbed on long truck/train interstate journey as the bike was on the road in November last year..

Front brake micro switch replaced…problem solved. 

Low beam issue…there are 2 extra headlight shell mounted relays, both Bosch 0332019150. With reference to the terrific colour chart by audiomick earlier in this topic, the Green/grey wire from headlight connector travels through a relay where power confirmed going in but not out. The brown wire travels through the other relay which I originally thought was to improve starting. Now I am convinced that this relay is for high beam. Today I will reconfirm power in/out but in any event there is no problem with high beam.
Unless you guys think otherwise, I will order 2 Bosch relays. And from digikey a batch of new underseat relays.

Agree that previous owner(s) of this Tenni likely made a fair effort to improve/repair. And I won’t undo their endeavours in a rash manner….

Have a few weeks until the Tenni’s (repaired) tachometer arrives from Germany. If I can fix low beam in the interim - the bike can at least go back on the road…. 

Regards, tennitragic