Advanced troubleshooting (ECU failure?)

[Mechanism]

Guzzisti, I desperately need your expertise for my 2002 V11 sport junkyard special. Bear in mind nothing on my bike is in it's original place, no wiring shematic has the same colors as mine (eventhough the wiring loom should be mostly original), and many shed mechanics before me screwed around with it. I've been reading up on the forum for some time, and tested a bunch of things (below) The issue: 

No priming / power to the fuel pump. Ignition coils are not getting juice either.

Starter does it's job

N light works

Kickstand safety switch has been deleted but I tested it anyway. 

Fuelpump has been tested 

All relays have been replaced, just to be sure. Connections on the bottom have been checked. 

I measured power across all fuses and then replaced them anyway.

Guzzidiag does not connect anymore

ECU does have power (I measured the connector untill I found a live wire) 

So what does work? When I turn on ignition one relay clicks. The starter turns over fine, all lighting and dash lights are ok. She ran fine one week ago and hasn't moved since. Checked ground conections, don't know what else to do?! 

My greatest fear is the ECU might have failed completely, but I have no way to test it. It doesn't help that I can't identify what relay does what, because they are not in original order and wiring seems off compared to the schematics. Can a 'failed while parked' crank sensor cause a 'no fuelpump' issue? I'm out of ideas. Should have went for a carb conversion 8 years ago. Oh, how I hate working on EFI 😉

Thanks in advance guys! 

Edited Saturday at 03:46 PM by Mechanism

[Pressureangle]

You can start by checking the crank sensor. Use a Multimeter to check the ohm value- if the value is near zero or infinity, it's shot. I don't remember the correct value, somebody might add that here shortly. Once you determine it hasn't failed completely, you can test the AC output of the sensor also with the multimeter while cranking. You should see voltage clearly, again I don't remember the spec but 5-14v AC seems right for cranking speed. Of course, inspect the wiring all the way to the ECU to be sure it's not disconnected, damaged, or corroded. 

Edit; also and first, test your battery cranking voltage. If voltage falls below ~10Vdc during cranking the ECU self-protects and shuts down.

Edited Saturday at 04:07 PM by Pressureangle

[Mechanism]

7 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

You can start by checking the crank sensor. Use a Multimeter to check the ohm value- if the value is near zero or infinity, it's shot. I don't remember the correct value, somebody might add that here shortly. Once you determine it hasn't failed completely, you can test the AC output of the sensor also with the multimeter while cranking. You should see voltage clearly, again I don't remember the spec but 5-14v AC seems right for cranking speed. Of course, inspect the wiring all the way to the ECU to be sure it's not disconnected, damaged, or corroded. 

Thanks mate. So is it technically possible the fuelpump doesn't prime if the crank sensor is dead?

[Pressureangle]

1 minute ago, Mechanism said:

Thanks mate. So is it technically possible the fuelpump doesn't prime if the crank sensor is dead?

Er, well, doesn't seem likely. My experience so far is with my '97 Sport 1100 which has a different ECU. 
I have a lot of simple homemade analog tools for simple checks- for instance, a taillamp bulb with wires soldered to the base which I can attach to the pump terminals to see visually whether it's receiving power or not- sometimes the noise and activity of solo testing makes it hard to hear. I would think it's standard procedure for any EFI system to give a short prime at key or power-on. That your guzzidiag (I've not used it yet) won't connect doesn't sound promising either, but if battery voltage is low that could be the explanation also. Give standing and cranking battery voltages for comparison? 

[Mechanism]

3 minutes ago, docc said:

 

Battery much more likely than ECU. You have come to right enthusiasts to work through this, @Mechanism!

As a vintage vehicle enthousiast, it was my first thought. So any testing is done without battery. I connect a PSU directly to the terminals when troubleshooting. Stable, regulated.

I actually love this Forum, but I never really needed it for a specific question😉

[Pressureangle]

21 minutes ago, Mechanism said:

As a vintage vehicle enthousiast, it was my first thought. So any testing is done without battery. I connect a PSU directly to the terminals when troubleshooting. Stable, regulated.

I actually love this Forum, but I never really needed it for a specific question😉

How many amps can your PSU supply? I bench tested a siezed starter with an automotive battery and saw ~450 amps. Have you verified voltage at the ECU while cranking? 
I've never tried this, so asking in ignorance.

[Mechanism]

8 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

How many amps can your PSU supply? I bench tested a siezed starter with an automotive battery and saw ~450 amps. Have you verified voltage at the ECU while cranking? 
I've never tried this, so asking in ignorance.

I have 2: One is a combined trickle charger and PSU 12 or 24V, 4 amps (for component testing and stuff) the other 12V 300 amps peak. If you overload they just cut out, no risk of BBQ. They are made by the French company GYS by the way. 

[Tomchri]

Did you check the 2 wires underneath the fuse box feeding your fuel pump relay.

Cheers Tom.

[gstallons]

Relay #5 is the relay that powers the fuel pump , ign, coils and fuel injectors .  There are 5 terminals at the relay . You have two terminals and then three terminals . The two terminals have B+ and when the relay is energized the other terminal supplies powe to injectors, coils & fuel pump. Put a test light on the first terminal where the relay was plugged in , this should light up. If not check fuse #2 with your test light. It should light up on both sides .  Try this and see if you have B+. If this works apply B+ to the second terminal to see if the pump powers up . Let us know what happens . 

[Mechanism]

9 hours ago, gstallons said:

Relay #5 is the relay that powers the fuel pump , ign, coils and fuel injectors .  There are 5 terminals at the relay . You have two terminals and then three terminals . The two terminals have B+ and when the relay is energized the other terminal supplies powe to injectors, coils & fuel pump. Put a test light on the first terminal where the relay was plugged in , this should light up. If not check fuse #2 with your test light. It should light up on both sides .  Try this and see if you have B+. If this works apply B+ to the second terminal to see if the pump powers up . Let us know what happens . 

This took some time because relays and fuses are not in the same order as in a standard V11:

Yes, when I connect the top prong (blue wire) with the second prong (red), the fuelpump runs.

[gstallons]

Alright , now to test the portion of the relay that energizes the coil in the relay. One of the o.s. bottom terminals id grounded in the ECU (pin 19) and the other terminal is b+ supplied from relay # 4.

 Perform the same test to relay # 4 for b+ on the top pin and apply b+ to the second pin and see if it energizes relay # 5 . Relay # 4 is powered by F2 . 10a fuse.

[Mechanism]

18 minutes ago, gstallons said:

Alright , now to test the portion of the relay that energizes the coil in the relay. One of the o.s. bottom terminals id grounded in the ECU (pin 19) and the other terminal is b+ supplied from relay # 4.

 Perform the same test to relay # 4 for b+ on the top pin and apply b+ to the second pin and see if it energizes relay # 5 . Relay # 4 is powered by F2 . 10a fuse.

The fuse feeds #4 with a white/green wire. The second prong is two brown/white wires, one leading to relay #5, the other into the loom.

When I turn the ignition on, relay #4 switches and sends power to prong #2, the brown/white wire on relay #5 is energized, but #5 does not switch. 

I switched the (new) relays around and the issue stays the same.

[gstallons]

 

 The other (yellow/red ) wire on relay #5 goes tot pin 19 of the ECU and the ECU grounds the yellow/red wire to energize the relay. With the key on , disconnect the ECU connector and  ground  pin 19 to see if things "come on" .

[gstallons]

I sent you a PM w/my cell if it will help 

[Mechanism]

16 minutes ago, gstallons said:

 

 The other (yellow/red ) wire on relay #5 goes tot pin 19 of the ECU and the ECU grounds the yellow/red wire to energize the relay. With the key on , disconnect the ECU connector and  ground  pin 19 to see if things "come on" .

Pin 19 to ground makes the relay switch and turns on the fuelpump. Starting to dread a failed ECU.. 😐

My compliments for your stellar support so far. This is incredibly helpfull, kudos mate.