Harley-Davidson troubles

[thumper]

I got a 2019 ultra classic last year did a few simple mods and rode it 6000 miles. Had 3200 when I bought it.

The bike is nice with a lot of features for the long haul. Easy on the back and sciatica.

I to am not good with the Harley culture still only wear full helmet and gear so the machine is fine, start the turn early and end a little late.

Still have my MG but the Harley was a pleasant surprise.

 

[Pressureangle]

8 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

I also remember seeing somewhere fairly recently that Harleys primary money maker isn't the actual products but the finance arm of the company. They are basically making bikes to feed the finance business.

Phil

 

 

Before I say 'one of the best Fortnine breakdowns ever' and 'He's on point everywhere' I have to point out that probably due to youth and a dab of apathy, he's missed a couple relevant points that add to, but don't dispute, his analysis. H-D sold over 100,000 motorcycles in 1936, before WWII. They never achieved that number again until 1988. They bought half of Aermacchi in 1960, because they wanted a World Championship in a Euro theater, and brought the Sprint to the US- where it was a monumental failure. Before that, they had the Whizzer and the Topper; neither brought a significant number of new riders to the brand *in and of themselves*. So there was a basis for ignoring entry-level bikes. The real problem was the ability of the Company to manipulate politics; famously and obviously in flat-track racing, where only Honda was able to overcome H-D rulemaking via sanctioning body with fabulous engineering specifically targeted to the project. Pity Honda turned that into the PC800 instead of a decades-early Ducati Monster. So the Company became stereotypically ossified in executive mentality, a la IBM. Then Ford and GM, then all the auto companies, stood up internal Corporate financing, which put product and customer both to second consideration. Coupled with the death of Corporate legacy interest, and the coming of CEOs and executives who gave no shit for the legacy it's easy to see how they got here. And there's no indication it's changing. All the electric bicycles and hand-waving are nothing but a drowning man's flailing and grasping at straws. 
So Phil's correct, Fortnine spelled it out, and the only people who adhere to history and legacy are riding trikes or wheelchairs, or mouth-breathing gym-rat trust fund babies of the former. 

[LowRyter]

13 hours ago, Pressureangle said:

You have to ride one old enough to have iron cylinders to understand. But those of us who have, as stated, are a dying generation. And many of us found ... less problematic units to fill the same spaces.
 

 

I remember when hitching was a thing

[p6x]

28 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

riding trikes

When we went to Bandera TX to pickup our flags for the Motorcycle Grand Tour of Texas, there were a few trikes, but the vast majority of riders were on two wheels, and the main brand was HD.

Independently of this particular snapshot, which is certainly not representative, there was something common to all the riders, with the exception of a few: mostly "senior" citizens.

This is something I have noticed since I do the Texas tour. Very few youngsters. When I was 16, all my friends were into motorcycling. We just have to admit it; the younger generations have different interests.

[Pressureangle]

1 hour ago, Pressureangle said:

Before I say 'one of the best Fortnine breakdowns ever' and 'He's on point everywhere' I have to point out that probably due to youth and a dab of apathy, he's missed a couple relevant points that add to, but don't dispute, his analysis. H-D sold over 100,000 motorcycles in 1936, before WWII. They never achieved that number again until 1988. They bought half of Aermacchi in 1960, because they wanted a World Championship in a Euro theater, and brought the Sprint to the US- where it was a monumental failure. Before that, they had the Whizzer and the Topper; neither brought a significant number of new riders to the brand *in and of themselves*. So there was a basis for ignoring entry-level bikes. The real problem was the ability of the Company to manipulate politics; famously and obviously in flat-track racing, where only Honda was able to overcome H-D rulemaking via sanctioning body with fabulous engineering specifically targeted to the project. Pity Honda turned that into the PC800 instead of a decades-early Ducati Monster. So the Company became stereotypically ossified in executive mentality, a la IBM. Then Ford and GM, then all the auto companies, stood up internal Corporate financing, which put product and customer both to second consideration. Coupled with the death of Corporate legacy interest, and the coming of CEOs and executives who gave no shit for the legacy it's easy to see how they got here. And there's no indication it's changing. All the electric bicycles and hand-waving are nothing but a drowning man's flailing and grasping at straws. 
So Phil's correct, Fortnine spelled it out, and the only people who adhere to history and legacy are riding trikes or wheelchairs, or mouth-breathing gym-rat trust fund babies of the former. 

That sounds harsh on the re-read, but I don't find anything to change lol

[Pressureangle]

...and don't get me started on how they turned the stunningly beautiful VR1000 race bike into the V-Rod. Another thumb in the eye of wannabe H-D riders. 
Oh and their new 'ADV' bike. A visual POS. 

[Joe]

15 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

...and don't get me started on how they turned the stunningly beautiful VR1000 race bike into the V-Rod. Another thumb in the eye of wannabe H-D riders. 
Oh and their new 'ADV' bike. A visual POS. 

I looked into the Pan America 1250 last year with a new motor design with 150HP, on paper it sounded like a solid plan. That was until I Googled "Harley Davidson Pan America 1250 problems". They had major engine failures in 21' and many other recallable issues to sort through the following years, leaving me to sort through low mileage used bikes for sale, some with new engines. Getting a read from the forum, Harley financing pushes warranties heavily on their bikes up charging you before you can leave the dealership. The sad reality is you need the warranty to maintain one on the road. Harley has failed to reinvent itself with new products because of quality and design flaws. For instance the electric HD LiveWire with 70miles of highway range, I would have trouble getting home from the dealership . The new HD Road Glide and Street Glide look teched up with features for 25',  I hope history doesn't repeat itself. 

[Pressureangle]

52 minutes ago, Joe said:

I looked into the Pan America 1250 last year with a new motor design with 150HP, on paper it sounded like a solid plan. That was until I Googled "Harley Davidson Pan America 1250 problems". They had major engine failures in 21' and many other recallable issues to sort through the following years, leaving me to sort through low mileage used bikes for sale, some with new engines. Getting a read from the forum, Harley financing pushes warranties heavily on their bikes up charging you before you can leave the dealership. The sad reality is you need the warranty to maintain one on the road. Harley has failed to reinvent itself with new products because of quality and design flaws. For instance the electric HD LiveWire with 70miles of highway range, I would have trouble getting home from the dealership . The new HD Road Glide and Street Glide look teched up with features for 25',  I hope history doesn't repeat itself. 

Why would anyone want a 150HP 500 pound high-seat dirt-road bike? Well, BMW has pulled it off for decades, so it must be an easy market right? Oh and let's make it reminiscent of a Camel. Gotta keep those independent USA styling cues, right? 
The PROTOTYPE Livewire, basically a battery powered Sportster, had a ~90 mile range, expressly because the gas powered one did. There's not a single element of those prototypes H-D didn't shitcan out of stupidity. 
Nobody can argue that the big touring bikes are comfortable and capable. One can argue that they built the best of them 2 engine generations ago. 
More electronics is not the answer, it is much of the problem. 

[po18guy]

The FTR is "close" but the proportions seem just a bit off to me. But, like Harley, they have 100 variations of three basic bikes.

[Pressureangle]

8 hours ago, po18guy said:

The FTR is "close" but the proportions seem just a bit off to me. But, like Harley, they have 100 variations of three basic bikes.

(Indian announces the end of FTR production)

"The decision comes just as the bike that inspired it, Indian’s FTR750, is no longer eligible to compete in American Flat Track racing, ending a dominant run of eight consecutive Grand National and Manufacturer championships."

Harley-Davidson has controlled the rules in Flat Track since before the original Indian company ended. Rather than develop a competitive engine, they adjust the competition to suit themselves. But when you are so far behind, eventually the money and the brains find a way- even the traditionally-less effective parallel twins have been in front of Harley's 1972 design. 

[p6x]

3 hours ago, Pressureangle said:

(Indian announces the end of FTR production)

This was the Indian that I liked the most. They still have a discounted one for sale at Iron Supply. They had two; the fully carbon one sold! they have a standard one at a discounted price.

[gstallons]

What REALLY let me down w/the Harley Davidson congregation was their reception of the Buell motorcycle . My co-worker's best friend rode his by one day and we stopped work to go outside and look at it . Jimmy had owned it for about a year and had three other  H-Ds . a typical HOG owner , long hair smoked up all the time etc. Wheelie riding 100' at a time , 12 rear tires the first year , he did not ride when snow was on the ground.  

He offered me a spin . It was like NO Harley I had ever straddled . Smooth , no vibration , instant power , all 6 gears. I had to stop three times and get off and blip the throttle to make sure the engine I was looking at was the engine powering the bike. EVERY component on this bike was from outer space and outer space quality too. That bike was my 15 minutes w/Blondie . Come to think of it the bike was white just like her white dress .   Unforgettable

 Now , back to Earth . Jimmy told me the dealership pushed them off into the corner because no one wanted to look at progress. think of 2 million Henry Ford customers and that is what they have. 

[Pressureangle]

57 minutes ago, gstallons said:

What REALLY let me down w/the Harley Davidson congregation was their reception of the Buell motorcycle . My co-worker's best friend rode his by one day and we stopped work to go outside and look at it . Jimmy had owned it for about a year and had three other  H-Ds . a typical HOG owner , long hair smoked up all the time etc. Wheelie riding 100' at a time , 12 rear tires the first year , he did not ride when snow was on the ground.  

He offered me a spin . It was like NO Harley I had ever straddled . Smooth , no vibration , instant power , all 6 gears. I had to stop three times and get off and blip the throttle to make sure the engine I was looking at was the engine powering the bike. EVERY component on this bike was from outer space and outer space quality too. That bike was my 15 minutes w/Blondie . Come to think of it the bike was white just like her white dress .   Unforgettable

 Now , back to Earth . Jimmy told me the dealership pushed them off into the corner because no one wanted to look at progress. think of 2 million Henry Ford customers and that is what they have. 

I still have a Buell race project sitting in the corner, though the class intended is 30 years gone. An 888cc single-cylinder layout. Still may make Bonneville some day. 
I roadraced a Buell for a season, good fun but nobody really knew how to sort them out in the '90s. An early S3 tourer is on my short list of acquisitions if I win the Irish Sweepstakes. 

[po18guy]

9 hours ago, Pressureangle said:

(Indian announces the end of FTR production)

"The decision comes just as the bike that inspired it, Indian’s FTR750, is no longer eligible to compete in American Flat Track racing, ending a dominant run of eight consecutive Grand National and Manufacturer championships."

Harley-Davidson has controlled the rules in Flat Track since before the original Indian company ended. Rather than develop a competitive engine, they adjust the competition to suit themselves. But when you are so far behind, eventually the money and the brains find a way- even the traditionally-less effective parallel twins have been in front of Harley's 1972 design. 

Strange. Several versions are on their 2025 website.