Guest mikemason Posted January 12, 2004 Posted January 12, 2004 TLM did the dual plugging on my V11S, it's been more than 2 years but at the time they recommended against changing the ignition map. One of the reasons they gave was that by going to a bigger cam you would want to run more advance which would have some offsetting of a new ignition curve. They also mentioned that by running a higher octane which is slower burning that would also have a affect on ignition timing. Also as far as pinging, my bike ran much richer and needed to be leaned out after the dual plugging of the heads. The reason I did it was to have a smoother better running motor, which I have. What finally got me to send my cyclinder heads thousands of miles to a different country was that dual plugging will create a better burn across more of the piston on a motor that has large domes that divide the combustion chamber. But if it doesn't help in the case of the Moto Guzzi then the only down side is the cost. I would do it again, to me it's worth it because I feel it allows a much larger margine of error in the tuning. I might feel different if our bikes had closed loop fuel injection.
al_roethlisberger Posted January 12, 2004 Posted January 12, 2004 Thanks for the information Mike, that's certainly good to know. And I'll let TLM know about my future choice regarding the new cam combination when they let me know about their current solution for ignition mapping. They may indeed have a similar recommendation based upon that
Guest v11jap Posted January 12, 2004 Posted January 12, 2004 Called TLM today do discus why i needed to spend and xtra 250 euro on changing the ignition timing. They told me it wasn't necesarry for the set-up to work but if you want it perfect it is definitly money wel spend... They say it is also the best way to deal with pinging on any V11 and should have been done at the factory.... they have sort of a trade system you give your own ECU and trade it for one with a changed ignition.. (so that i think you can just send your ECU over, Al) can someone try to explain why if you use a "hotter" cam you don't want to advance timing? i would say it was the other way around! And i was just thinking about the octane level in holland the standard octane level is 95 if thought it was something like 80 or so in America right? That should be terrible for pinging... Ciao jasper
al_roethlisberger Posted January 12, 2004 Posted January 12, 2004 Naw, we generally have about 3 grades of fuel here, ranging from ~87 to ~92(depending on location). I always put high-grade in, and generally don't have any detonation problems. I had some last Spring right after my head work, but that seemed tied to my misadjusted valves, as I didn't have the problem after we got that sorted out. I have no idea on the cam question either, but I posed the question to TLM. I've dropped TLM a note, so we'll see what they say as well. Thanks for following up for me al
Guest mikemason Posted January 13, 2004 Posted January 13, 2004 you have it backwards, when dual plugging you need less advance because you don't need as much time for the combustion process to take place, so you can start the combustion process closer to TDC. If you have a spark that starts the combustion from both sides of the cyclinder instead of having to have the flame travel across one side to the other it takes less degrees of crankshaft rotation for the process to take place. When running a cam with more lift and duration you end up lossing low rpm response and power, by running a little more advance it helps the throttle response and low end.
Guest mikemason Posted January 13, 2004 Posted January 13, 2004 Also TLM charging 250 euro for a ignition map change seems like alot of euro, I would think for that much euro they would build you a custom map for your bike on the dyno. TLM is a very knowledgable and reputable specialist I think you pay for that piece of mind you receive that they will do it right.
al_roethlisberger Posted January 13, 2004 Posted January 13, 2004 The only folks I found in the USA that do a fuel *and* ignition remap of the M15 ECU on a dyno, and have experience with dual-plugging, want something like $800 ... so an ignition remap for $320 doesn't seem too bad to me I forget who it is, but I belive they were up in Minnesota or something... it's somewhere back in this thread Anyway, I've got an email off to TLM asking them about the cam and dual-plug combination, and how their ignition remap would work together. Mike, did you have a chance to call Mike Rich and ask/tell him about your experience with the x10 and not sinking the valves?? I'm very curious to hear what conclusion you two come to as to what parameters make it OK. al
Guest v11jap Posted January 13, 2004 Posted January 13, 2004 Hi there, Mike thanks for the reply.. i figured out the theory about less advance with dual pluggin but i didn't understand that that doesn't apply in combination with a "hotter" cam. I still don't really understand but i imagine it being a trade of between better flow of gasses at high rpm resulting in more peakpower.. which isn't really the way i want to go.. if you can give another shot at explaining that would be really appriciated!! As for the costs of changing ignitointiming i was assured they did that on a non-profit basis as this should be factory work.. They have another company doing that for them as it is pretty complicated But yeah custommapping should be best (i believe the same settings are used for normal set-up and dual plugged set-up) and it is a lott of money but i was assured money wel spend! (i was chocked to see the dollar to the euro rate!! should go to the USA on holiday this year ) Thanks for the info!! Jasper look at that a new item
Guest mikemason Posted January 14, 2004 Posted January 14, 2004 jaap I'm no expert, I know just enough to take something apart and a 50/50 cance of putting it back together without breaking it The stock cam is limited in the amount of duration it can have because of emissions and the limitations of a valvetrain that has lifters and pushrods. Most performance cams increase the amount of time the intake valve and exhaust valve are open at the same time, the problem with the MG valvetrain is the cam has to have ramps on the lobes that allow the lifter to slide up the lobe, where as a roller lifter or a bucket and shim set up allow steeper ramps. So the stock MG camshaft has to be very mild to take into account that the valves take more degrees of crankshaft rotation to open to the highest point and than more degrees to finally close. So when you install a higher lift camshaft with more duration you end up pushing some of the volume of air/fuel out of the exhaust so you end up with less volume that you are compressing which is less likely to detonate, which allows a few more degrees of initial timing. That's also one of the reasons that pro stock cars and bikes can run 16:1 compression because they push part of the volume out of the exhaust before compressing. Since the valves open sooner by running a little more advance you complete the combustion process before the exhaust valve opens. The stock ignition timing has more to do with emissions than getting the most power and torque. The problem is the ignition map has to be very basic on the MG, the ECU only uses a few sensors to adjust fuel and timing. For example if you used a airflow sensor, O2 sensor and a knock sensor along with the present sensors you could always have the optimum settings for timing and fuel.
Guest v11jap Posted January 14, 2004 Posted January 14, 2004 HI mike, for a guy with a 50/50 change in breaking things you did a pretty good job explaining these things to me thanks!!! But i don't think higher performance cams are the way for me if i am correctly you loose on torque!! and i just love that! thanks for explaining!! ciao jasper
al_roethlisberger Posted January 14, 2004 Posted January 14, 2004 From what I understand from those that have the x10, and especially x9 cams installed, these do not reduce torque, and in fact the x9 for sure boosts the low and midrange, virtually eliminating the midrange torque dip. I believe the x10 has a bit more top end, so perhaps it does sacrifice some bottom?? I have no idea honestly beyond rumour, as I haven't seen a dyno result from one on a V11. Not all high-performance cams are alike, some will be designed for top-end, low-end, or all-around performers. You just need to choose the cam that suits your goals. al
jtucker Posted February 3, 2004 Author Posted February 3, 2004 Hello again guys! Just checking in to see if how things are tuning out here... Not much has changed on my end since I last stopped by, but I'm starting to put some pressure on folks now to get some progress. I really want to ride this year! Still debating whether or not to do the dual-plug thing... has there been any definitive results from this yet?
al_roethlisberger Posted February 3, 2004 Posted February 3, 2004 Holy Shoot.... it's JASON! Glad to see you dropping back in. Where have you been?! .... you know, several of us have been without bikes for months here and there, but still come see our friends.... tsk tsk Anyway, well, other than what you've read in this thread... nothing new. I've got my plugs and coils in, and it runs fine. I can't tell any difference, in range or power yet, but then again I haven't taken any longish tank-draining rides since I put them in last December As soon as Jet-Hot sends me back my pipes... been about 3 weeks should be any day now... I am still considering running down to Hare Racing to get the PCIII remapped and dyno'd. That might tell us something. The only reason I'm wishy-washy on getting the remap is that the bike supposedly is going in for the engine rebuild in the next month, so I hate to drop $200 on a remap, that's just going to have to be redone as soon as I get the bike back with all the engine mods But, I feel somewhat "obligated" to let the community know if there is any measureable change in performance..... so I probably will do it. If I wait until after the engine is rebuilt, there will be no way to really tell what impacted what. The only remaining thing left to do to "tweak" the dual-plug setup is to send off the ECU to the Netherlands to let TLM remap the ignition. I'll probably do that this Spring after the engine rebuild. So, what's the status of your V11? I would think everything should have been done by now.... Gosh, hasn't it been like 18 months since your accident? You still have the Duck too? al
jtucker Posted February 3, 2004 Author Posted February 3, 2004 Ugh! Well, the first (and most trivial) thing I was having done was the "clean-up" of the dinged head. Finally got that back after about a year (I wasn't in a hurry - but I am now!) It came back the WRONG COLOR - a dreadful GREY finish in stead of the silver/aluminum finish that it had. We sent it back and this time I insisted it must be done pronto, or I will have it permanently installed in their asses. I'm going to take the reigns on this project now. Finally. Still have the M900. Just didn't ride much last year for various reasons. Feels strange going from 12K+ a year on the bike to ~200! While the Cooper S is a hoot to drive, I hope to be commuting more on the bike(s) this year. In addition to seeing that progress gets made on the Guzzi, my other priority right now is getting back into shape so I can actually FIT INTO my motorcycle gear again! I fell in love and gained 40 pounds in the process - funny how that happens, no!?! Trying to get back on track now. Oh, the other thing that's holding up the Guzzi? My mechanic needs to pull the crank to send out for balancing (with new rods), but apparently, they don't *make* a tool to remove the nut off the front "end" of the shaft. They've followed a few leads, but it looks like they're going to have to fabricate something to do the job. I think I'll stop by the shop on my way home today and see if any progress has been made (fingers crossed). Oh, and if anyone has any suggestions on an off-the-shelf tool to remove the crank, I'm all ears! __Jason
al_roethlisberger Posted February 3, 2004 Posted February 3, 2004 Yeah, "love" will do that.... I still can't get into my leathers I'm in a similar boat regaring accumlated mileage, or lack thereof. I rode a LOT last year(and a WHOLE LOT more the year prior), but this year was pretty much a bust. I dont' know what happened... OK well yeah I do... I bought a house and the GF and kids moved in! That's OK, but I ended up with LOTS of projects, but whaddya going to do. There are only so many hours in the day ...now this year, I have a resolution that as soon as the bike is back from the engine rebuild... Well, don't be a stranger, and keep us up to date on your projects al
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