Anyone dual-plug a V11?

[al_roethlisberger]

Yep, although it would alter the compression, but I'm sure Mike would account for that.

 

So, with all this in mind... I wonder *which* type of coil(s) one would get to accomodate the second set of plugs and how one would wire them appropirately. I'm sure it's not rocket-science, but I have no idea...

 

al

[jtucker]

I'm thinking along the lines of Dyna dual-output coils. They come in a few different flavors, though. My guess is that you would want one with the same primary resistance as the stock coils. I don't know what that is, offhand, but should be easy to determine with a multimeter.

[Guest gdockray]

I'm thinking along the lines of Dyna dual-output coils. They come in a few different flavors, though. My guess is that you would want one with the same primary resistance as the stock coils. I don't know what that is, offhand, but should be easy to determine with a multimeter.

I am in the process of dual plugging my 1975 850T. It has the original 3 ohm coils at the moment and a Dyna III ignition. I ordered 3 ohm Dyna coils per the recommendation on their web site, but then found that they had released a service note that canceled that and revised to recommend 5 ohm coils for dual-spark set-ups w/ the Dyna III.

 

Probably the best thing to do before ordering would be to check with Dyna for a recommendation from their tech dept..

 

George

[al_roethlisberger]

Well, my bike is going to the shop(Moto Italiano, San Mateo) this Saturday, and they'll be pulling the heads and shipping them off to Mike Rich to get "Stage II" porting done, along with shaving them a bit to get an additional .5 of compression ratio out of them. I'm pretty excited about that.

 

While confirming the work to be done, I spoke with Mike this morning again about dual-plugging at length, and asked about just having the work done now... while actually enabling the dual-plugging later when we have the software(whether PowerCommander, or other) such that we can manage timing for the ECU.

 

However, once again... to his own chagrin ... he has convinced me not to bother based on my goals, lack of measureable benefit, and the expense.

 

Bottom line, the dual-plugging will add another $145 per head to the $795 for porting the heads, and that's with a $50 per head discount "package" if you get it all done at the same time. So, that would put my head-work alone at nearly $1100 just for the bench-work! ouch!

 

But more importantly, although he said that there certainly is a lot of debate and personal opinion about the viability of dual-plugging the late-model bikes... in his opinion, and based on his Dyno results, unless you are racing and looking for measureable improvement above 8k RPM, dual-plugging won't buy you anything other than neato factor.

 

He admits that if you have an inconsistent burn in your combustion chamber due to hot-spots, dual-plugging might help reduce detonation... if that's a problem for you... but if not, then it's superfluous. And even if it does address a detonation issue, you have several options from the upcoming software to manage timing, different fuel, to even modifying the pickup mount to move it around a bit... which are certainly cheaper and less intrusive to do than modify the head, oil supply, and find the right dual coils to build-out the dual-plug solution. All expensive and time-consuming projects.

 

His words: "I hate talking you out of my making a buck, as I've got lots of time and money invested in developing this kit, but for the average street application, this doesn't offer any real benefit. Some folks may say it seems 'peppier', but I haven't seen that, nor found any data via Dyno testing to indicate dual-plugging will offer any benefit below top-speed, above 8k RPM applications."

 

So, since my budget is limited, and since I "tool around" well below red-line most of the time .... I'm going to choose to spend my money for the most "bang for my buck" which is mid-range torque, and reliability. So, I'll get the "stage II" porting, and save $500-700 worth of modifications(dual-plugging bench work, coils, wires, software, etc) required to enable the dual-plug option, and use that for other parts like exhaust or ergos.

 

So, while technically... objectively, there doesn't seem to be overwhelming performance reasons to dual-plug based on Mike's expertise(which is extensive) and my riding style and goals.... there is always the subjective and unquantifiable "neat" factor of things like dual-plugging, and that will be an individual choice.

 

Honestly.... I'd love to get it dual-plugged, just because it is technically pretty snazzy, and would be relatively unique. But I think I'm just going to have to make a practical choice here and save the money. And anyway, heck, if one day it does make sense, I can always have it done later

 

al

[Paul Minnaert]

I asked Jens from dynotec, his awnser:

 

> Nür eine frage ob doppelzundung lohnt.

Beim Brennraum mit 47 / 40 mm Ventilen immer siehe www.dynotec.de/

 

Do I need to translate?

 

Here in holland even people with cali's doubleplug them. It's a fairly common practice.

Now your v11's come out of warranty, you can make a fine bike out of it.

[al_roethlisberger]

How do they modify the timing for the EFI, and what coils are they using? Other than "everyone else is doing it", why do you find that the 15 people in Holland with Cali's(that's a joke ... ah hem ) tend to dual-plug?

 

Is it just their "keeping up with the Jones'" or do they have a measurable improvement in power or efficiency to offset the costs?

 

And is this solution a 1:1 match for the V11? ...I'm still concerned about how one will handle the timing issue, and tinkering around forever trying to find which coils and plugs combos would work best.

 

al

[al_roethlisberger]

OKAY... well even with all my chatting with Mike, et al... about the "minimal" benefits of dual-plugging... I couldn't resist.

 

So, my heads are in UPS's good hands, on their way to Mike Rich right now to get flowed/ported and dual-plugged. I'm going to go the route Jason and I chatted about where I'll have the work done, plug the second hole for now... and when I can get software to modify the timing, find the correct coils, and get it on a dyno to get it all mapped out... then I'll "enable" it.

 

With Ken down at Evoluzione saying he'll have the Marelli software by Spring, that might work out perfectly for me to ride down to L.A. and get it mapped.

 

BTW, did anyone notice in Cycle World the review of the Aprilia Tuono, and they mentioned several accessories from Evoluzione?

 

 

So, to the nitty gritty... the next issue I'll need to solve is which coils will be a good replacement for the OEM coils for enabling the dual-plugging? Anyone know from previous experience with this sort of thing? I know HD has some coils on their Sportster "Sports" from the late 90's that were dual-plugged from the factory. So maybe that's a good place to start?

 

I also *think* that the Aprilia Falco is dual-plugged from the factory?? Is this correct? If so, perhaps the coils from this bike could be a drop-in replacment??

 

Big question: what specifications and parameters should I be looking for to match the current coils?

 

Although I know this is new territory for the V11 Sport, I also know that a lot of folks have dual-plugged various bikes over the years. So I'd like to not have to do too much trial-and-error here. So any advice and recommendations are very much appreciated.

 

 

thx!

al

 

P.S.

 

BTW, Mike has some nice Titanium pushrods with ChroMo end-caps(no galling) that are significantly lighter and stiffer than the OEM rods, for $175.

[al_roethlisberger]

Just got this from a helpful fellow MGCL member:

 

Al,

 

No need to change the plug temperature unless you change other factors as well, i.e. compression. If you up the compression, go one grade colder, for example from NGK BP7ES to NGK BP8ES for the big plugs. Use the same grade for both plugs.

 

As far as coils are concerned, I use Silent-Hektik coils with dual output and am happy with them. 2.2 ohm, 40 kV output.

 

Cheers,

 

-Topi Kuusinen, Finland

'86 LM IV

[dlaing]

I am not positive but I think you need atleast 3 Ohms otherwise you may toast your ECU...

[al_roethlisberger]

Is there any way to verify specs like this? Seems pretty critical, so I would think someone somewhere would know the parameters within which to "shop" for a suitable replacement coil??

 

thx for the tip!

al

[dlaing]

I heard rumors that Dyna was recommending 5 Ohm coils to replace 3 Ohm coils.

To find out the ohm rating, just measure across the two terminals (not the high voltage terminal).

I'll bet someone already knows the value.

My other concern is that even if the Ohms are the same as stock, might the total current flow be higher because of faster voltage rise times, reduced paths of resistance to the spark plugs, or higher capacity of the coil, resulting in the ECU possibly overheating??? Does anyone know or does anyone have a specific dual plug pair of coils to recommend????

[jtucker]

Well, my mechanic just checked the stock coils on my bike. The primary resistance of both coils measured precisely 0.7 ohm.

 

Conveniently, Dyna has a 0.7 ohm, dual output coil: part number DC9-1.

 

PS: with this post, I finally became a "forum flooder".

[al_roethlisberger]

Yikes, those things are e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e

 

Dyna Ignition Coils

 

...ah well, the price we pay for screwing with a perfectly good working bike

 

 

Jason,

 

Per your emails on MGCL, I think that any requirement to ground the coils locally won't be a big deal. And you mentioned that you thought there might be some cooling(overheating) issues to take into account, as well as a different mounting design.

 

I'm sure we can address the grounding and mounting pretty easily with some home-grown fabrication. But I'll be very interested in any cooling issues. If there are any, we'll have to look into making certain they get adequate ventilation and/or shielding I guess. ...maybe any new bracket could incorporate a shield?? hrmmm

 

Thanks for the research, and I'm going to do some specifically on these as well. If the Ducati folks like them, and their ECU is at least similar... this seems like a good candidate

 

Thanks again!

al

 

P.S.

 

PS: with this post, I finally became a "forum flooder".

 

Congrats! ...now I'm curious what's going to happen when I reach 500 posts. Only about 60 to go

[jtucker]

Rumor has it, there is a guy out there with a dual-plugged V11 Sport (Rosso, I think). I wish we knew who that was. Perhaps we can send out a "bat signal" to summon him...

[al_roethlisberger]

Ok, just got off the phone with Dyna:

 

- They say there aren't any extra cooling issues with their coils

 

- He asked some questions I can't answer without my bike in front of me... that matter.

 

Do we have a single-fire or dual-fire ignition?

- Single-Fire = Two coils, each coil/spark only fires under compression

 

or

 

- Dual-Fire = One coil, both plugs fire at the same time, regardless

 

And yes, he said that based on our .7Ohm requirement, the DC9-1 or DC9-2 would be appropriate... depending on our answer to the question above.

 

Anyone know? Single or Dual-fire for our bikes? Do we have 1 or 2 coils?

 

al