Anyone dual-plug a V11?

[al_roethlisberger]

The heads got decked just a tad, to raise compression by maybe a quarter point. Based on a number of factors, that's all Mike felt comfortable doing. They were "stage II" ported as well.

 

Pistons, et al... are all stock.

 

BTW, it's interesting that on the MGNOC list that no one has commented on Dyna coil reliability...hrmmm I suspect they are fine, as they make the HD "Screaming Eagle" performance stuff, but I'm still curious. ...just want to put my mind at ease.

 

I await Cliff's response

 

 

Thanks again guys

 

al

[al_roethlisberger]

Jaap,

 

Since you probably have a more "personal" relationship with TLM than any of us...

 

Although I like this techtalk and appreciate the knowledge of you guys, personally I'd still would leave twin sparking to the specialists. Like TLM:

 

...would you mind dropping an email to one of your contacts there and double-checking this coil impedence thing for us?

 

Just ask them what the primary coil resistance is on OEM V11 Sport/LeMans is

 

Is that possible?

 

 

I'd love to use a turnkey service like this, unfortunately there is no one local, but then again it's also nice to understand the whole modification one's self to instill confidence

 

thx!

al

 

P.S. BTW, all this double-checking is not meant to be any disrespect to those that have already checked their coils for me. I'm just getting as many informed opinions as possible before buying $200 worth of coils, and possibly cooking my ECU

 

Hey Paul, do you have a "spare" ECU from that wrecked LeMans you parted out just in case I need one after this exercise?

 

 

Thanks again for all the help guys!

[callison]

Here's some more for you Al. Dual plug Moto Guzzi ignition curves. The one Pierre is using on his newly dual plugged Sport 1100i is #5. How you tell which one #5 is, I'll leave up to you. I think these originated with TLM.

 

[dlaing]

Carl,

How is Pierre creating those curves?

With 16M aftermarket roms?

I have been waiting for his report on http://www.guzzitech.com

[callison]

I wonder if Pierre is going to talk to me after I've revealed all of this stuff. There aren't 10 Sport 1100i's as modified as his in the entire U.S. so it's not like you'd run into them every trip around the block so I don't think he'll be too upset. Some of the info is in "open literature" anyway. At any rate, culling the pertinent stuff from some email exchanges I've had with Pierre, here it is:

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Pierre"

I've got the Stein-Dinse graphs. Three for the sport models and 3 for the cal models (you're supposed to try each one, and stick with the one that gives smoothest transition through the mid range).

 

Will Creedon mapped the four curves - each on a separate chip. The chips were identical but for the ignition curve variations. Ran those chips back to back on a DynoJet eddy current dyno and for my bike, the #5 curve proved the smoothest and generated the best power curve through that limited area where the 4 curves vary. I was surprised at how pronounced the differences were between the four.

 

Of course, that result is on a pretty heavily modified motor so, as always, ymmv.

 

 

Todd had installed my PC III earlier in the week so I dropped by his

place at 8:30 for a trip to Dyno Dudes tuning link center in Moreno

Valley. Had a nice run to Moreno Valley on another Kodak moment SoCal

morning.

 

Met the "Dudes" (Chris and Mike) at 10:00 and, with Todd's able

interpretation, outlined what I wanted to accomplish. Had 5 chips to

run, with the best of the 5 to be mapped. This extended the dyno time

required substantially (4.5 hours), but the net result is that I'm now

satisfied given the available resources and technology for that bike -

my motor mods have been optimized and I'm getting full benefit from them

- finally! Yee Ha! (90.3 SAE HP, 67.5 SAE torque) I won't bore you

with details (full story and charts will appear on guzzitech.com), but

in short I regained the HP lost after the dual-plug / decking mods and

saw spectacular improvement in the low and mid rpm range. Throttle

response is absolutely crisp - the way it should feel IMO. The best way

I can describe it is what I told Todd after my first test ride - it felt

for the first time like the throttle was connected directly to the

motor.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So what Pierre has is a heavily modified Sport 1100i, dual plugged, ported, Carillo rods, balanced. The whole shooting match. The porting was not done by Mike Rich, so it is conceivably possible that there is still more oomph available. While the V11 Sports are stronger than the Sport 1100i's, at the horsepower extraction extremes of developement, they ought to be a dead heat and anything that applies to one ought to be applicable to the other. The current stuff is just better optimized than the former stuff is all. Part of that is the ECU, but once the mechanicals are done, and curves are optomized, it shouldn't make very much difference if the optimization is done via chips and PCIII like Pierre has done (the chip does the ignition curve, the PCIII the fuel mixture) or a complete unit like Cliff Jeffries ECU. My Sport 1100i is down because the heads are crudded so bad. I just talked with my wife about sending them out to be ported. She shook her head sadly at the foilbles of motorcycle enthusiasts... I know who I'm going to call this coming week. Mike Rich. Hey Al! You're going to have company!!! I have the Cliff Jeffries My16M already wired in (dual, I can swtich between either computer) so I just need to get the mechanicals squared away, set the ECU stuff and then hook up the O2 sensor so the fuel mixture can self correct. Sounds simple. I bet it's not.

 

For what it's worth, there are a whole bunch of goodies at http://www.daes-mototec.de/ for Daytonas, Sport 1100i's and V11 Sports. Just click on the far right box for a drop down menu. Some options go nowhere and others lead to some pretty nifty tid bits.

[al_roethlisberger]

Interesting info for sure Carl...

 

I think that Jason is getting the Carillo rods as well as the porting and dual-plugging for his V11 Sport, so while I might be the "hare" in this HP/performance race because I got my heads back waaaay before his, he might end up being the "tortoise" once he gets his heads all taken care of at Mike's and gets it all together

 

But, once we get this coil question finalized in my mind, the next big thing is the remap. I'd like to find someone in Northern CA that has the FIM software, knows how to use it, and has a dyno. But all I can find so far is Evoluzione in Southern CA. While I wouldn't mind using Ken's services down there, it's not very convenient.

 

Do we know of any shops up here that "fit the bill" ... even maybe a Ducati shop??

 

al

[Mike Stewart]

Next year after my warrantee is up, I am planning to go through my engine as well. I agree Carillo rods will be the way to go, mainly to take out some heavy spinning weight. I am looking into having the crank knife edged as well and taking more weight off the flywheel. Of cource a nice balance job to smooth out the works is in order. I will have Mike Rich dual plug and port my heads and I wonder what compression ratio will work the best in the V11, maybe 10 to 1?

 

Mike

[callison]

While I might be able to cojole "she who controls the budget" into letting me send the heads off for "improvement", obtaining Carillo rods and going full route on the innards would likely tip the odds in her favor. I'm not even certain that I would go so far as Stage II as I haven't talked to Mike Rich yet.

[al_roethlisberger]

...you know, considering that only two people(maybe three if you count Carl's considerations) are working on dual-plugging the V11 Sport/LeMans... I'm finding it pretty funny that this thread is growing to be the longest by far on this forum

 

 

OK, well back on topic...

 

 

So I just talked with Tom at Manley Cycles in Minnesota. If you remember, these are the guys that are considered to be the experts in the USA on remapping FI for Ducks, Guzzis, and even HD to some degree.

 

When I called him and told him that I had dual-plugged the heads, he basically said, "why? ...I don't really see any benefit on these bikes?" He wanted to know if Mike had suggested otherwise, and I told him Mike's general comments on "...limited benefits, but hey, if you want to do it..." Tom agreed and commented that with the combustion chambers and general state of tune on the new bikes being so much better than old, dual-plugging these bikes won't buy you a huge benefit on the street. One may get a small range of performance, efficiency gain, as well as detonation protection, but all-in-all it's negligible. That being said, he noted that "I was doing something no one else had done"... great

 

But more to the point, I wanted to know a couple things:

 

1) He asserted that no one else other than Manley in the USA is doing complete FIM remaps of the ECU, including timing, especially for the 15M.... at least as far as he knows. He said that even if people started doing this more often(I told him two or three other folks were looking at doing it on our forum) that a shop just couldn't pick up from scratch and replicate their 15yrs of experience, and all the tools and process they have developed. "...there just isn't a substitute" While I always take claims like this with the requisite "grain of salt," ...his explanation of various techniques, considerations, and results seemed to support this claim.

 

2) Can I ride the bike with the bike dual-plugged, fuel/air remapped, but hold-off on the timing... without damage? He said, "maybe, it's hard to say.. but damage is possible." This may seem like a bone-headed question on my part, however I just wanted to find out. Heck, if I could ride the bike dual-plugged for a bit, with just a small performance hit(versus risking damage) until I could get it to the shop to get the ignition mapped, that might be convenient. Anyway, this seems like a no-go. I'll have to install the coils when it's time to map it.

 

3) What does it cost? On average, at Manley... "to get it right" costs about $600 of dyno/shop time. And then there's a $180 FIM service charge. *whew* ...plus I'd have to get the bike to Minnesota If I don't find an alternative, it looks like a road-trip is in order this Summer

 

 

But I have a few other leads I've gotten from some Duck friends because as you may be aware, the Monster used the same ECU for a while(maybe still does??).

 

But Tom at Manley was very friendly and helpful never-the-less. If you have questions, he seemed very happy to chat for a bit.

 

OH, and BTW, he recommended the Dyna coils just fine

 

al

[callison]

Al, find someone that will re-map the timing, go to Moreno California (right next to Riverside International Raceway) and visit the dudes. If they have the mapping software, fabulous, if not, get a PCIII. I'm sure Pierre would love to contribute. I know of some individuals that have had awful disagreements with the FIM people in Australia because of their attitude. The same may be true for FIM representatives elsewhere. I could probably list at least four firms off of the top of my head that have been doing dual plug conversions for a long time. Check this one out, it's a bike out of Moto International.

http://www.motointernational.com/project.html

[al_roethlisberger]

Hi Carl,

 

...thanks for the tip, unfortunately a PCIII(which I already have) is of no avail here. The PCIII for the MG cannot change the timing curve, only fueling parameters.

 

And if I get the ECU mapped optimally, my conversations with various tuners say there is absolutely no need for the PCIII anyway. The OEM ECU will be sufficient, and is quite good. This is the solution I'd prefer anyway... ECU with a proper map alone, thus following the KISS principle

 

...after all, the PCIII is used to allow the owner to conveniently tweak the deficiencies of the OEM ECU's map without having the expensive software required to get to the ECU's map itself. Some might argue that the PCIII in combination with the OEM ECU is inherently better than the stock computer, but I don't know about that.

 

Most tuners I've spoken to say that the PCIII, while a good shade-tree tuning tool, still isn't a substitute for a complete ignition, fuel remap on a Dyno. And once done correctly, the PCIII is superfluous. However, apparently few people are around that can do this well, hence the popularity of the PCIII.

 

..anyway, I've found a potentially alternate route. www.factorypro.com they are relatively local.

 

I found these folks through some of my Duck friends, and they apparently have a very good reputation among that crowd, and Marc has apparently done quite a few remaps and custom chips for Ducks, BMW, etc...

 

He knows the Manley guys, and is freinds with the guy that wrote the FIM software. I spoke with him for a while and although he hasn't done a dual-plug map for the Sport specifically, he says he's done enough remapping of Ducks, BMWs, Aprilias, etc.... that this would be no problem.

 

He's apparently done a rechip so well that Aprilia is going to OEM it from him....

 

Anyway, his charge is $775 no matter how long it takes, and that includes any software licensing(upload) fee, and guarantees coming back if one doesn't like the results.

 

Also, on the "can I ride the bike dual-plugged without a remap" question: His answer differed from Manley's saying that he knew plenty of BMW riders that dual-plugged and didn't remap the ignition curve, and they ran fine. He says the test is that if I hook it up and it runs fine with no pinging, it should be safe to ride around, although I'm not gaining(and in fact may be losing) some performance until the map is done. This would be very convenient if so, because then I can get the coils all mounted up, tested, etc... and then ride it up to his shop for the mapping. Or if I can verify that the Dyna coils will fire just one plug, I can always just unhook one plug in each head until then as well. We'll see though. I suspect there is going to be some trial and error experimentation here

 

So, getting closer.... Marc has a call into Dwayne?? in Australia, the guy that wrote the FIM software, and is checking into some other questions before he lets me know for sure that he can do this as advertised. But he seems very confident that he can

 

al

[Cliff]

If you had spots where it pinged or pinged sometimes, dual plugging will make it worse as the cyclinder pressures will be increasing more rapidly.

 

Anyway you know where you can get an ECU that has no mapping limitations and if you blow the output with the coils you're only up for about $10 to fix it. You're pioneering a few other areas already :-)

[al_roethlisberger]

Hey Cliff,

 

Did you ever get a chance to double-check your coil impendence measurement per Carl's results? He had an individual coil, off the bike and got 1.4 Ohm ...just curious.

 

thx!

al

[al_roethlisberger]

If you had spots where it pinged or pinged sometimes, dual plugging will make it worse as the cyclinder pressures will be increasing more rapidly.

 

Interesting, as this is one specific area where Mike Rich said dual-plugging would help... reducing detonation since I can probably drop one temp of plug since the ignition will be retarded.

 

I guess we'll see though. I'm hoping this won't be an issue. Prior to the head-work, the bike did ping a bit when hot and under WOT sometimes as many of us have reported in the past.

 

al

[al_roethlisberger]

....Moto Italiano just changed out my ECU, and now it runs fine

 

One problem down.