callison Posted June 28, 2003 Share Posted June 28, 2003 Well, it's certainly plug and play in the physical sense. I would guess that the bike would profit by timing changes though. We'll let you lead the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 More info from the friendly folks at TLM Hello Al, Retarding the ignition only works on the elder Moto Guzzi models. We have never changed the timing on a V11. The effect whether you do or do not retard the timing is not noticeable by human reception. What twin-sparking does, is giving you a bit more power (approx. 3 to 4 HP extra) and makes the engine run a lot smoother at low RPM. Over here we say it almost looks like it makes the engine run more cultivated. Once you've installed them, you'll be amazed about the benefits and the feeling the bike returns. For the second spark plug we use a kind of standard solution: a 7 mm and 1.5mm spark plug wire. You can buy it in almost every car hardware store. Fitting this should cause no problems. I hope you have enough information on Twin-sparking and installing them will be smooth. If you ever think about tuning your V11 more, do not hesitate to write an e-mail to us. We are working on a complete kit that improves torque and power. Finally, let me know what you think of the results after Twin-Sparking. Ciao, Martijn. Teo Lamers Motorrijwielen Michiel Kramer +31 24 3711111 parts@tlm.nl www.tlm.nl "...more cultivated"? These guys seem really great. al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callison Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 I think Pierre has covered the most ground on this path. He has dual plugged his Sporti and run various timing curves on a load cell dyno. He did not finish up using stock timing. It was easier to change curves on the old bikes because they had mechanical advance, not changing it because you don't have the computer or software to adjust it on an ECU should probably not be interpreted as not being necessary, but rather that not changing it won't have any negative effects. I think there is still a possibility for further enhancement of running characteristics for a dual plugged V11, but it doesn't look like something that needs to addressed in the immediate future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 I agree with you Carl. You may be able to run twin plugged without change. The main problem is if your run close to detonation or have some already, it will be worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Why would detonation be worse? I can see that if by adding the second plug you have increased compression, and/or if the second plug raises the net plug "heat source" one might increase the chance of detonation(pinging)... but both of those would happen whether the new second plug is firing or not.... correct?? And a quick fix would be to get a cooler plug(s). But interestingly, in my case, since having the compression raised 1/4 point, and having the new plug installed(yet not firing) by Mike Rich when I had the porting done, I have actually experienced less detonation(pinging) under acceleration. So, does this mean I shouldn't expect any worse detonation once the second plug is "activated"? Whaddya think? From my meager understanding, the only benefit in retarding the timing is that with the single plug, the timing is advanced enough before TDC so that the relatively inefficient flame propagation can burn the whole air/fuel charge at the best time when the piston finally reaches TDC. With the dual-plugs, the burn should be more efficient, requiring less advance(so one retards it a bit). So, yes, to get the most efficient power from a dual-plug setup, I agree that the timing should be adjusted. However, I should be getting a cleaner burn, and possibly a bit more power.... unless the timing is *so* advanced that this newer more efficient burn is robbing me power on the compression stroke. However, from the email exchanges with TLM, who has apparently done several of these, it doesn't sound like it does lose power, and runs better at idle/low-RPM... which is exactly what I'd like Anyway, I guess the dyno will tell the tale I'll take it down to Hare for a quick run after I get the valves adjusted to Raceco specs with Mike Stewart, then again after the dual-plugging... and see what we get. I'd be happy with the same power, but a better idling/running bike. More power would be good, but we'll see I guess. Keep in mind that this is still something of an experiment If and when I can easily, reliably, and affordably remap the timing, I would do so in a heartbeat. But so far, this sounds "good enough" ... at least I hope so al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callison Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Al, I'd suggest a call to Mike Rich so he can explain the peculiarities of the MG squish band and chamber design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I'm just thinking the dual spark and quicker combustion is basically an ignition advance on your original setup. The pressure rise will be more rapid. Perhaps the quicker combustion means there's nothing left unburnt to detonate. You'll be the one to tell us if this theory is correct or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 ...and if it pings, just give it more fuel from the PCIII! ( perhaps a reckless solution, but I'll bet it'll be fine) Generally speaking more Ignition Advance gives more power.....up to a point. Watch for pinging in the area of 5000rpm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 And here's another question, for those that have dual-plugged older bikes that can have their ignition easily modified mechanically... typically are they "advancing" or "retarding" the timing a bit? I suspect I keep getting these terms juxtaposed al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 I'm just thinking the dual spark and quicker combustion is basically an ignition advance on your original setup. The pressure rise will be more rapid. Perhaps the quicker combustion means there's nothing left unburnt to detonate.You'll be the one to tell us if this theory is correct or not. Indeed, we'll see for sure. I used to have some detonation(pinging) under hard acceleration before I had the head-work and the PCIII. But so far(knocking on wood) it seems to be gone. I did speak with Mike Rich, and he doesn't see any issues per se.... but he did recommend going with a cooler plug, the NGK BPR8ES and CR8HSA for the secondary. I've actually picked up a couple of the equivalent Denso Iridium plugs for grins-and-giggles to try out though. In any case, he recommended slightly cooler plugs. So, I received the coils from TLM yesterday, and as advertised they are exactly the same as the OEM single-output versions. My only concern is that the two coils they sent, although very similar, are obviously by different manufacturers. Their cases are slightly different in design, and one is clearly marked "Champion", where the other is unmarked. I suspect they are the same MG part#, just from a different supplier/lot... which isn't uncommon. However just for safety's sake I've got an email off to Martijn at TLM to verify that they are indeed the same part/specs before bolting them up to the bike. ....yes indeed... very close now I'm pretty excited after starting this journey late last year.... At least Jason, and others, won't have to revisit this once they decide to go this route. The only variable left unresolved is timing modification, but if Todd convinces Dyno to make a PCIIIr.... that will be the final piece to fall into place! When it's all said-and-done, this will be a fun FAQ to finally be able to write... and actually a pretty short one! al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jaap Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Well, the FAQ won't be that long, but this thread is reaching 10 (TEN) pages soon! Al, I hope the dual plugging will give your bike what you expect it will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callison Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 At least Al's heads are done. I talked to Mike Rich yesterday and my rocker arms are also victims of the soft valve stems. They have to be re-bushed and re-ground as well. I haven't even looked into the pushrod/tappet bores yet. This is getting to be an extremely expensive repair. Pushing $2000 at last count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 At least Al's heads are done. I talked to Mike Rich yesterday and my rocker arms are also victims of the soft valve stems. They have to be re-bushed and re-ground as well. I haven't even looked into the pushrod/tappet bores yet. This is getting to be an extremely expensive repair. Pushing $2000 at last count. YIKES ...I'm really sorry to hear about that Carl. It's amazing how quickly these things can add up. Here's an interesting observation I have noticed about myself though. When I hear about a multi-hundred or thousand $$ bill for repairs for my car, heck even my house, I tend to delay or find alternatives. However, when I think about similar bills for accessories or hot-rodding my bike, it almost .... seems like no big deal. What kind of sickness is this? Al, I hope the dual plugging will give your bike what you expect it will do. Thanks Jaap ...we'll see won't we? I actually don't have any specific expectations... that's bad isn't it? I just did it to see what it would do... just curiosity really. So we'll see. What would I like to see though? Higher mileage(efficiency) and more power, but then again... who wouldn't want that in general? al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callison Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Check out Project Bike. I emailed Brent a few years ago and he stated that he was getting 50-55 mpg and the bike would lift the front wheel in the first three gears by just opening the throttle. Porting does improve efficiency, but to use it, you have to avoid the temptation to whack the throttle constantly. With that kind of power, that isn't an easy task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Check out Project Bike. I emailed Brent a few years ago and he stated that he was getting 50-55 mpg and the bike would lift the front wheel in the first three gears by just opening the throttle. Porting does improve efficiency, but to use it, you have to avoid the temptation to whack the throttle constantly. With that kind of power, that isn't an easy task. WOW... .... I can only dream I suspect to get that kind of gain in efficiency, we get back to the need to tune the timing correctly as well, which we've already determined I can't do easily(read: affordably) right now. [...among the multitude of other things he did such as high-comp pistons, Carillo rods, balanced/blueprinted engine/tranny, flywheel, etc... not all of which I'd be interested in doing necessarily. But who knows one day ] But it'll be interesting to see the before and after no doubt. As soon as I get it all hooked up, the new PCIII-USB in from Todd, and mapped... we will know if it makes any more power according to the Dyno. Frankly I'll be surprised if it's much more as nothing more than adding a second plug will have happened at that point, but one never knows Hopefully due to not being able to tweak the timing correctly... I won't actually lose power. It's always a possibility with these things, especially when experimenting like I am. Here's to hoping that it all works well together though Keep your fingers crossed al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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