Hot weather starting

[fieldsheer]

I have problems restarting the bike after stopping for a short break, 10 mins approx, this has happened twice in the last couple of weeks.

 

The first time was outside a Jap bike dealer, kept calm and checked the fuses which were all okay. Swapped the relays (Siemens originals) around which made no difference.It would just about catch but die when the throttle was opened a little.

 

Went to borrow a lighter from the sales guy but he sent a mechanic to have a quick look at the bike instead. As he had no info and was unfamiliar with Guzzi's I described my usual staring procedure, when he did it the bike fired up.

Said thank you and left, total time at the dealers approx 30 mins. I drove about a mile to fill up with petrol expecting more trouble but the bike fired up no problem and continued todo so for the rest of the day.

 

From previous links regarding vapour lock and heat build up I assumed that I had finally been caught, it was much warmer than usual but nothing like what you must get in Italy.

 

On Sunday I was out with the Ducati Sporting Club and as the weather turned warmer I began to have concerns about stopping and restarting. The first time no problem, started as normal, when it happened the second time I assumed it was heat and leave it a while and all would be well.

 

When I did get it going again I had to keep the revs above 6000rpm or it would stutter and die, it took three restarts and a bit of pushing to cover 12 miles. When it would not turn over I assumed I had flattened the battery, but when we tried to jump start it from the recovery truck there was just a loud click from the starter (sounded like the gear was throwing out but no guts to spin the engine) and the wiring getting very hot. The starter took a lot of abuse so i guess I have burnt it out.

 

I have since checked the Fuel tap and could get no continuity from it which I assume that there should be, the wire from the loom is giving a 12 volt feed.

I guess a change to a manual fuel tap is next as I tried a direct feed to the fuel tap wires and still no fuel.

 

The starter motor will occasionally spin when removed from the casing but not reliably. The wire to the solenoid gives a 12 volt reading when disconnected but only 4 volts when connected to the solenoid.

 

My conclusion is the fuel tap is faulty and I've damaged the starter motor.

Am I correct or are there other parts to check in addition to those already mentioned? Both times the motor and tank were really hot and the fuel level on the low side.

 

Apologies big time for being long winded but I wanted to give the whole picture.

 

Before it stopped it playing ball it had been runnnig like a wee sweetie.

[al_roethlisberger]

...actually, it sounds like you've diagnosed your potential problems quite well

 

 

Sorry to hear about the problems though.

 

 

I too would recommend replacing the electric petcock straight away, and see if that resolves the issue.

 

If you look around, you may be able to find a local shop that repairs starters and other electric motors that can check your starter and hopefully repair it. I can't recall if our current crop of starters is by Valeo(I'm sure someone here can confirm the make), but if so, let the shop know and they can probably tell you whether they can work on it.

 

After all of that is fixed, if you keep having trouble... yes, check into the vapor lock, but hopefully that is not really your problem.

 

 

BTW, as an aside, the John guy I met last night who is the Director of Marketing at Ducati North America, but was formerly with MGNA... confirmed that MG was(is) aware of the vapor lock "issue"... but I guess just never officially addressed it WRT to any recall, etc... , as it was sporadic, and was addressed finally with the new tanks and their internal plumbing.

 

al

[fieldsheer]

Thanks for the reply Al

 

I just wanted to make sure that I hadn't missed something real simple, I can make mountains out of mole hills without much effort.

 

The starter is indeed a Valeo bearing the number D6RA21.

 

I checked Motomeccas site and they were £135 exchange and Motorworks listed a Valeo starter at £199. One of them, I can't remember which, also listed individual stater components but no model details so that is another avenue I'll be checking out.

 

As you suggest I'll also try some of the local automotive agents before the bike dealers as they can be a fair bit cheaper on some items.

 

On the vapour issue it nice to they cared!

 

To prove the 'law of sod' I had ordered some aluminiumised cloth with the intention

of shielding as many under tank components as possible. It arrived on Monday morning.

[Steve G.]

You must be carefull with the French made Valeo starter, they really are total pieces of shit.

Whether superheating of the injectors themselves, or other parts of the 'fuel delivery system', vapour lock is the result. And the cause is clearly from stopping the bike after a lengthy ride, and stopping for 10-20 minutes, with the air temp over 80 F. Mine will start, and as long as I don't touch the trottle, it will happily idle, but turn the throttle and back firing and surging are the result, and this lasts maybe a couple minutes, a long time if you have an audience at the gas station or bike stop.

The electric fuel tap is another weak link, or rather the feeble wire loom coming out of the end, which suffers from vibration/movement induced wire breakage. Some have recommended replacement of the unit with a manual one, which makes sense. I got a free electric one on warranty, and modified it to protect the wires, by coating them with a liquid rubber, then wrapping the wires tight. It will be ok now.

In your case, I don't think the fuel tap would have quit from the heating effect. It must be a coincidence.

Ciao, Steve G.

[callison]

It's not all that hard to pry off the cover of the electric petcock, chip away the epoxy, solder the wires and then insulate them RTV rubber. Cheap too.

 

The Valeo starters are good enough, providing you never overheat them, then they turn to crap and have to be replaced or rebuilt. Generally replaced. I once rebuilt one using the carcass of a new starter for a Saturn. More work than it's worth though as you have to rebuild the end cap to reverse the polarity to the brushes so it will turn the right direction.

[fieldsheer]

Thanks for the reply guys.

 

I phoned Motomecca today to get a manual petcock from a 2002 model but all the guy could find was the electric version I already have and the later in tank model. The other option was the petcock from the 1100 Sport which having done a search tonight I delieve is the one I am looking for.

 

The old Part No was 29105460 which has been replaced by 01105460, as the part no Al had in a previous thread was 30-29105460 I am sure this is the part I need and I have copied Al's photo of the part to send to Motomecca to double check. In the mean time I will have a go at repairing the existing petcock.

 

On the temperature front they were probably the hotest days it has been out in.

I didn't let it run to see if it would clear, I just tried to get moving as soon as possible which in light of your experience was the wrong thing to do.

 

On the starter motor front a local car factor is also £135 for an exchange unit but supplied the name of a local refurbisher to check out who will hopefully be cheaper.

I definently cooked the starter as it dose not spin smoothly and the brushes are only about 5mm down there slot (they are still a good 15mm long), the gear throws out but the motor dosen't spin I guess i've damaged the winding.

 

It could be worse as we still have the Thunderbird or SV650 to play on.

 

Thanks again guys.

 

Derek

[Gio]

I had some problems with the wires on the electric petcock also and repaired about a year ago with JB Weld. Now it looks like I have a slight leak at the mount point...

 

I have a manual petcock ready to install but recall that the stock electric unit had some kind of sealant on the flange.

 

Anyone have any suggestions for a suitable sealant for the flange/threads..?

 

Gio

[al_roethlisberger]

Permatex makes two excellent gas tank sealing products, both labelled as "Motorcycle and ATV Gas Tank Sealers".

 

The blue product is for parts that move or will be disassembled, and as such does not harden. I have used this product for fitting all the o-ring/mating-surfaces for the petcocks and fuel-level sending units.

 

The gray product is the sealer to use for relatively permanent fittings. It will stay flexible, but hardens.

 

Any auto store should have these, or you can get the products online.

 

al

[Gio]

Thanks Al....I knew there must be something better than olive concentrate..

 

Gio

[jrt]

Another 'trick' you can do is to cycle the kill switch two or three times- so it cycles the fuel pump. You can actually hear the change in pitch as the motor picks up liquid gas. I've done that when the bike is reluctant to start with pretty good effect.

On the 'vapor lock thread', I was riding around the other day, it was hot, I ragged on the bike, parked it and could actually hear gas boiling in the tank. Whoa.

Jason

[fieldsheer]

The story so far,

 

The wire to the fuelcock was broken (checked of the bike with a Multimeter) and after I soldered the wires back no longer works at all, so either I was ham fisted or it was on its last legs.

The starter motor was properly goosed, when it was stripped the magnets were no longer attached to the casing and all of them were in at least two pieces. Fortunately the shaft and wiring were salvagable so £65 from a reasonably local repair shop instead of £135 for a rebuild from a Motor factor, I just it does not prove tobe a false economy.

 

Callison,

 

There are two bodies available to spin the motor clockwise or anti clockwise, the one I required was not in the general catalogue but the guy got it sorted anyway.

 

The engine turns over alright but I cannot start it until the fuel tap arrives.

 

I would have posted earlier but have been having none bike problems with blocked drains and arguements with Scottish Water and the Local Council over who is responsible, now resolved.

 

JRT,

 

Boiling petrol I can give a miss .

 

 

Derek

[fieldsheer]

New manual tap fitted and problem solved. Only the holiday period wait was a pain.

[robbiekb]

Nae offense or anything but being a native of Dunfermline, Fife and presently residing in Seattle , WA i'd be super surprised if you encounter vapour lock in the Scottish summer

[callison]

The differences in the fuel outlet angle on the electric valve and the manual one from a Sporti gave me some problems when I had the manual one on the V11 Sport. Without re-routing the hose, there was too much angle on the manual fuel tap and when it finally got warm out, the hose kinked and shut off the gas. Re-routing the hose solved that problem, but my manual valve was old and leaky, so I fixed the electric one and returned everything to the original configuration.

 

Yep, there are two Valeo casings. If you're being extremely cheap like I was, you buy a Saturn car starter (spins the wrong way!) and use the case off of that because it: #1 is available locally, and #2, it's about half the price of the part from MG. And about three times as much work. Silver soldering longer brush leads on etc. I did it, saved money and so forth. Too much effort. I'll never do it again. IT's working fine going on two years now.

[fieldsheer]

Robbiekb

 

I managed to be out on the two hot days we call summer. Both times the petrol level was low, my bike is black so the tank soaks heat from the sun. Earlier in the day a ZX9R was leaking petrol through the vent pipe and when he opened the filler cap he must have lost a least another cup full, that was before the heat the really got up. Strange but true.

 

OT

 

A tourist had been in Seattle for a fortnight during which time it had not stopped raining. Being curious he asked a local youngster when the rain had started. The younster replied that he did not know as he was only eight years old. (stolen from somewhere)

 

Callison

 

I thought I was going to have problem with the petrol pipe length as well, it's a neat fit but will probably be replaced in due course,I don't wasnt to swap one problem for another.

 

Cheers folks