Stucci & Drilled out OEM cans = won't run?

[al_roethlisberger]

Well, I had drilled out my stock cans a while back, and without any tuning, the bike ran a bit rougher... so I though "no big deal".. I'll get the shop to run the FIM software the next time I take it in... as it was running "like a top" before the mod to the cans after a prior tune-up with the software.

 

Then I finally had some time after the craziness of the Holidays to get my Stucci x-over installed as well....

 

However, when I had it all put back together and started it up:

 

1) The left exhaust header started to glow a bit on fast fast idle during "warm up" (...I probably left it running at 2k a bit too long, but this has never happened before).

 

2) Upon *trying* to ride the bike around the block, it coughed and bucked all the way to about 3k, where it more or less smoothed out, but still coughed here and there. It was essentially unrideable.

 

 

Well, obviously I need to the the ECU tuned and/or a PCIII, but I have to say that even though I understand the effects changing the exhaust has on the system... I am pretty surprised at the degree of impact these two relatively simple changes had on the bike. I can only assume that the bike had been previously tuned to run very specifically with the previous setup's parameters...

 

So, where's the best-buy on PCIIIs these days?

 

And, any thoughts on this behavior is appreciated as well. I certainly can't even ride it to the shop like this. Either I get a PC, and/or put the stock parts back on to get it to the shop just to change it all out again

 

...and I haven't even put my FBF air-box lid eliminator on yet

 

Good thing it's getting "Wintery"... and I had planned 'downtime' for the bike anyway

 

al

[Janusz]

I just cannot imagine how some muffler drilling combined with Stucci X-over would change your bike running so dramatically. And for worse not better. Are you sure that you did not do anything else without maybe knowing, like knocking TPS a little or introducing false air into an intake or something similar?

 

Anyways, here is my experience:

First, maybe a little out of proper order, I installed my PClll since that what what I managed to buy for almost peanuts from K&N ($140 US). The map was, and still is, a modified by Dynojet stock map for V11S. That alone smoothed out the throttle response nicely. Next I installed Stucci X-over which got rid of this nasty 4000 RPM dip and made the whole engine even more smooth and responsive. I am planning now to drill back plates on my mufflers but not 100% sure yet.

[RichMaund]

I understand that K&N has them on a cheap clearance sale right now. But I contacted Todd Egan at his Guzzitech web site;

http://www.guzzitech.com/

I bought the PCIII for my V11S through him for $299. But it came pre-loaded with a well proven map made for my V11S including the Mistral pipes it had! Though I had some strange mechanical problems right after that, once solved (A squashed spark plug wire at the left coil and a ripped intake boot.) the bike ran better than ever. 80 HP at the rear wheel, stronger mid range and it now has ZERO driveability issues! Todd spent a couple hours on the phone with me and well as many e-mails handling my questions. I couldn't be happier with the result. It just runs flawlessly!

I would contact him to see what is available. The K&N maps may be old ones.

I like to save a buck as much as the next guy, but in this case I didn't mind paying for "full service".

Once you have a PCIII, any Dyno-Jet Tuning Link Center can dyno tune and exactly personalize the mapping to your individual bike! No guess work, just results!

Makes me want to make a field trip to FBF this Spring after the April Guzzi Rally in MD! Ah!... The possibilities!

[dlaing]

I would suspect your throttle balance is off.

I have been suspicious for a while that the stock crossover throws off the throttle balance.

Putting the stucchi on may have corrected the natural balance of the cylinder flow which was incorrectly balanced at the throttle bodies.

All hypothetical... but one pipe getting hotter than the other may imply an imbalance.

Another possibility is that your drilling lodged some debree, blocking one of the mufflers, pretty unlikely unless you drilled it enough for large chuncks to fall off.

 

The Stucchi will definately want a different map, either by ultimap or PCIII, and then your bike should run better than ever!

[Janusz]

Rich,

I think you got it wrong with Power Commander story. The money you paid for a "full service" PC has been wasted. Let me explain why:

 

Power Commander lll is a Power Commander lll - always the same no matter where you bought it and for what price. As you surely know it comes with a software on a disc and once you loaded it on your computer then you have a FREE access to any map available directly from powercommander.com Dynojet site. You just download whatever you want from there and then stuff it in your PC with one stroke of a key.

 

You said :"The K&N maps may be old ones." and it does not make any sense. There is no such thing as a K&N map. The PC lll I bought from K&N came preloaded with a Dynojet developed stock map for our bikes, but that did not matter since as I said you can easily load whatever you want directly from their site, be it a stock map, european stock map, Mistral and stock filter, Mistral and K&N filters - whatever is currently available.

 

To summarize: Power Commander is just a hardware which you should purchase wherever it's available at the lowest possible cost. You learn the application software and all the tricks from an excellent tutorial on your disc which comes with PC or directly from powercommander site. If you do not want to learn (why?) and bother your PC lll comes preloaded with an excellent improved stock map anyway. Just plug and ride.

 

And also Rich, Al does not yet have his PC installed, so our discussion does not help him a bit anyways.

[Janusz]

The Stucchi will definately want a different map, either by ultimap or PCIII, and then your bike should run better than ever!

I do not agree with that. IMO Stucci crossover alone by itself does not need modifying of your map. My own experience confirms that.

[RichMaund]

Janusz

You're right. It IS just hardware. You can access the new maps no matter who you buy from. But though I own a computer, it's a huge affair and there's no way it's going out into the shop. I needed the unit "right" for my bike on the first try. Unless the map is designed for your bike including the equipment you're using, such as pipes or air-box removal, you are just guessing by uploading maps to try. I suppose I could disconnect the PCIII and bring it back in the house to re-program. But undoing the wire ties on the cabling and unwrapping the unit (I padded it and bagged to protect the serial port from water and the unit from vibes. The unit is water proof, but the serial port isn't. Being a careful bastard, I wanted to protect the unit as well as possible.) to mess it seemed like a PITA.

There is no way to get the right map for your bike, a really "nailed" one, unless someone has already done the work for you or you can go to a Tuning Link shop like FBF so they can personalize the mapping to your bike.

Since my PC in the dining room and my PCIII is out on the bike in the shop in my backyard and FBF is 450 miles away, I spoke to Todd at length about it. He delivered the PCIII to me all set up and ready to go. The Dyno runs I did convinced me it was a good improvement over the stock set up.

I didn't even bother loading the software into my home PC that came with the PCIII.

I have been keeping an eye on old Pentium class laptop PC's on EBay. When I can snap up a good Thinkpad 600 or similar for a good price, I'll jump on it. That'll be good enough to run the Marelli software for troubleshooting the bike, it'll run the PCIII software I have, and it'll run the CNC programs on my lathe and mill after I get the stepper motors installed!

For now, I was willing to pay full price to make sure that what I got was plug & play (ride) right outta the box. That's what I meant by "full service" in that post. And Todd was very helpful. He earned it from me!

I am "computer adequate", not fully computer literate!

But once I can afford a good P200 laptop for the shop, I will be becoming more active in my computer use. I'm looking forward to that! Especially since I have been learning CNC programming at college!

 

Anyone have a old P166 to P233 laptop in good working order they wish to trade for some seat work?

[al_roethlisberger]

I just cannot imagine how some muffler drilling combined with Stucci X-over would change your bike running so dramatically. And for worse not better. Are you sure that you did not do anything else without maybe knowing, like knocking TPS a little or introducing false air into an intake or something similar?

 

Well based on other folks' experience I would tend to agree, but all I can say is that the bike ran like a champ before drilling the mufflers, and then ran *much* worse after then installing the x-over.

 

I certainly can entertain that something else could be amiss in coincidence with the modification of the exhaust and the installation of the x-over affecting performance.... but given that I didn't even come close to touching anything near my throttle bodies(i.e. TPS) ... and again that the bike ran perfectly prior to the installation, all I can guess is that my most recent tune-up with the FIM softward tuned the bike very specifically within a narrow range with the stock setup, and once I modified the airflow with these mods, it threw off the mixture.... probably leaning it up guessing on the glowing header

 

..... boy is that a run-on sentence or what?

 

Anyway, I don't think it's any big deal, I was just surprised at the dramatic results.

 

I do not agree with that[x-over requiring a new map]. IMO Stucci crossover alone by itself does not need modifying of your map. My own experience confirms that.

 

I would suggest that like many other things we've observed with Guzzis, these bikes and their tuning probably vary dramatically from bike to bike. So depending on how the bike was originally tuned, and how sensitive it is to changes in it's intake/exhaust, one bike may require little to no modifications, while another may have just been on the cusp of running well, and that final modification may have been that final straw to make it exhibit noticable changes in performance. This may have been the case with my bike... dunno.

 

All-in-all, I'm sure that once I get it tuned, either with the FIM software and/or a PC, all will be fine. I just wanted to touch base with everyone regarding their experiences, and where the best pricing on a PC is these days

 

I agree that these results are "odd"...

 

al

[dlaing]

Hi Janusz,

There is a difference between a map that was designed for your model bike and a map that created specifically using the tuning link technology with your bike on a dynometer. How much the difference is depends on manufacturing variables and the state of tune of the bike. No two bikes will all be set to the same EXACT settings. People on various lists have reported great changes in performance going from the map that matched their bike to a custom map created using their bike.

 

I have a stock US bike. I have taken the 001 map and modified it to make it better. It works great, but I am sure it could work even better if I can have it customized on a tuning link enabled dynometer. Do I have to do it? No. Why have I not done it yet? Because it is expensive and I still have not determined which exhaust mods to go with.( The Ghezzi and Brian crossover/muffler looks cool)

 

As for the bike wanting a different map when switching to a Stucchi, I use the word want rather than need as, you are correct that it does not need a new map. I could be wrong and there may be no difference in the OPTIMUM map, but I doubt it.

Apparently there is no significant difference in optimized maps between a K&N flat filter and the stock flat filter. So it is quite possible that I am wrong about the crossover.

 

I still think the PCIII is the most important performance enhancer you can buy for you bike and optimizing it on a dynometer is next most important enhancement. From what I understand the Stucchi will provide improved mid range power for just a couple hundred dollars, another wise investment. Aftermarket mufflers seem to add 5 to 10 HP, but they are expensive. The airbox mod is practically free power. Porting is expensive but balances the cylinder's flow and adds a bit more power. All are good investments, but the PCIII allows you to adapt better to every change along the way.

[Janusz]

I agree with your latest post fully dlaing. Since I've studied the whole manufacturer tutorial diligently let me say here what they explain:

 

They say that a factory maps tend to utilize the bike's full potential to approx. 65-70% because the factory has to comply with noise and pollution requirements. Then, the Dynojet piggyback corrective map if properly matched to what you have ( for instance stock or stock with Mistrals or european stock etc.) will bring you up to approx 90% of optimum. That may and probably will be good enough for mostly everybody. If you want to go up to 100% fully THEN you will have to indyvidually tuned on the dyno.

 

My question is: this is a nice theory, but how good and diligent this dyno operator is? If he will fiddle with your setup but you will end up with say 93% or 96% or maybe 88% even will you know it? If your bike runs almost perfect now why take a risk ?

 

I see that you can experiment with all the throttle/rev positions freely on your own. If you are careful and slow will you not do a better job yourself?

 

I could and did set my suspension perfectly by a multitude of small changes/test rides myself.

 

How did you modify your 001 (stock) map yourself dlaing? Could you describe the process and how big changes you introduced? I know of some serious tuners who rather do it "manually" then on dyno, I know that is long and tedious but results are really satisfying, so they say.

[dlaing]

Hi John,

I too am a little distrusting of operator error.

I live close to the guy who sold Rich his power commander, Todd Eagan, so I would like him to be the operator. But he doesn't have a shop yet. He goes to Dynotec's HQ in vegas to create unique maps. The tuning link is supposed to greatly reduce the chance of operator error. But I have heard of one case of the bike running worse, probably because to O2 sensor was not inserted properly. If the results are worse, I can always revert to my current map. But I would try to figure out why the tuning link produced worse results. I have seen map modifications at places in the map that can only be reached by lugging the engine, like 100% throttle at 2500rpms. Absurd, and bad for the engine!!!

Can you do a better job than the tuning link? I don't think so. Maybe if your are really good and take alot of time. But after it is tuning linked you can improve the map, depending on your definition of improved. The tuning link should give you a map to center around. To maximize power, efficiency, or throttle response you can tweak the map slightly.

Todd Eagan often will add tweaks to the map. For example if people need racer throttle response he may richen it at specific closed throttle points that may slightly increase fuel consumption and emmisions.

 

My battle with creating a better map has been a lot of fun. I should have documented the changes I made. Some of it has been very perplexing. I marked my throttle grip so that I can estimate throttle position. Starting with the 001 map I initially had to run the buttons richer. When I finally got a PC to run the software, I zeroed the buttons and started out by enrichening it about 3 numbers in places that seemed to run too lean. As evidenced by pinging or rough riding. To confirm that it needed enrichening I would tweak the buttons richer until it ran smoothly. Or lean the buttons to see where it ran rougher or pinged. Then go to the computer, make the changes to the map. I then leaned out the map where it did not sputter, where I suspected it was consuming too much gas. An interesting thing happened after I got it running leaner. After a few weaks of riding it seemed to be less prone to pinging. I suspect because of less carbon build up. I am on about my third map. All of my changes have been subtle. Almost all the map changes are within the range of the 001 and 000 maps. If they are outside, I don't think I varied by more than two numbers.

I would like to get the K&N oxygen sensor to keep me in a safe range. It would also be nice to know exactly where you are on the map when riding.

I kind of like the do it yourself approach because it is fun. But there is nothing like a dynometer and gauges to monitor power, temperature and emissions.

[dlaing]

Well bite my tongue!

I just heard of a second case where a bike ran worse after a tuning link job.

See the www.wildguzzi.com discussion titled In defense of Jim.....

[dlaing]

I wish I could remember the details of the other bike that ran worse. Pretty sure it was a Jackal and that I heard about on the topica guzzi sw list.

I wonder if it was the same tuning center <_>

[Janusz]

Thanks dlaing. Very useful info. I wish I could get more from you like what is your bike set up as far as hardware goes and how your map looks. If you are not too busy sometimes could you E-mail me some?

 

Yeah, I've read this "Defence of Jim" thread on the other board - quite interesting and confirms my general rule - "Stay Away From All Professionals As Much As Possible".

[callison]

It's worth reading about other Moto Guzzi EFI problems before performing modifications on your own. So... here (at the bottom) are some links that (barely) pertain to the V11 Sport models. I say that because I own both a Sport 1100i and a V11TT and the fuel injection on the V11 is several orders of magnitude better than that of the Sport 1100i. But - they are both designed by the same firm and share certain design philosophies that may be compromising the entire scheme. All of the injected Sports seem to have "stumbling" problems at around 3500 rpm and occasional idle stalls or stalls that occur when rapidly closing the throttle after extended runs. It does not look like these are related to exhaust system configurations (cross-overs of any make) nor the fuel maps associated with that rpm. After market items such as cross-overs or the Power Commanders may alleviate the symptoms somewhat or a lot, but the basic problem may be a design flaw in the programming of the ECU microprocessor. I say may be, because we don't have access to sort of information. Still, Cliff Jeffries, a Sport 1100 Corsa owner in Australia was so disgusted with the replacement cost of a failed ECU and the miserable performance of same that he opted to build his own ECU. It makes for fascinating reading. One thing does stand out, he was not able to get his own ECU to replicate the stumbling behavior of the Magneti Marelli unit, so it may be that the Marelli stuff just has a bad program to begin with. I haven't heard of any V11 Sports frying an ECU yet, something that has happened with appalling regularity on the Sport 1100i's, but there may come a time when someone does have a problem and shies away from the incredibly high cost of replacement. Cliff has an alternative, but it has not been tested on a V11 Sport, only his own bike and one other. It failed to make the second bike run better though, so nothing is perfect, but I suspect the other bike that ran miserably poor was to a point where nothing will make it run correctly until the other problems on it are resolved. It is not a unique situation either. My Sport 1100i has been running so badly that a PCIII had no effect. You have to fix everything else correctly first, then do modifications. One thing is becoming apparent to me and only time will tell if this holds true for V11 Sports as well as for Sport 1100i's and that is that the electrical connectors degrade in performance, especially if the bike is ridden in inclement weather. My Sport 1100i that would not idle, ran dangerously bad at rpms below 4000 and stalled every 30 seconds or so in traffic (and now gets mileage in the low 20 mpg's where it used to get in the mid to high 40's) and is sitting in my garage torn apart while I clean every engine related connector. Having done that, it now idles, and throttle doesn't hand anymore when being shut. Just cleaning the connectors has had a major influence on that vehicle. At some point I will get it all back together and road test it. I expect that it will return to normal, which is to say that it will occasionally stall while idling, stumble at 3500 rpm and behave in that peculiar Magnetti Marelli fashion. After this lengthy posting of which I claim no level of expertise in the subject, I provide the following URL's to view.

 

The FIM view of it all:

http://www.fuelinmoto.com.au/>http://ww...linmoto.com.au/

 

The trials and travails of Cliff Jeffries as he builds his own:

http://www.jefferies-au.org/ECU/progress.html#Latest

http://www.jefferies-au.org/My16M/index.htm

 

And a thread on the Australian Guzzi forum about the success - and lack of it, while trying to fix yet another Sport 1100i.

The thread is # FI jollies - pete roper 12/24/2002 22:49:41 (18) on http://www.guzzi.com.au/forum/guzzi/.