Stucci & Drilled out OEM cans = won't run?

[callison]

As a follow up to the above post. I put the Sport 1100i back together and took it over to the gas station and back - about two miles (it was raining, lousy weather for a shake-down cruise). This definitely does not constitute a real test ride, but overall, the bike performed like it should have. No stalls and it idled. Believe me, before cleaning all of the sensor connectors on the engine, these are two areas that the bike could be relied upon to not do correctly - if at all. My V11TT has not exhibited the same level of recalcitrance that the Sport 1100i has, but if it should start getting to that point, the first thing I will do is clean the connectors. The V11 Sports have essentially the same connector set, so a little periodic maintenance on connectors is probably not a bad idea. Probably on about the same schedule as the fuel filter.

[Janusz]

Carl, could you name a few engine connections which you would advise to clean? Other then oil pressure sensor, maybe air temp sensor and neutral sensor connections is there anything more to clean ?

[callison]

These are the ones that will directly affect how the engine behaves.

1.) TPS connector

2.) Injector connectors

3.) ECU connector

4.) RPM/phase sensor connector

5.) Ignition coil connections

6.) and connector #57 on the wiring diagram:

http://home.pacbell.net/guzzi007/schematic.../V11_Wiring.gif - this one can cause really weird problems if it gets just partly resistive from corrosion. I have three miles of pushing a Sport 1100i (two of those in a really nasty driving rain) from that same connector as it exists on the Sport 1100i's. It may exist on all EFI models, I haven't checked. It is there on the V11 Sports.

http://home.pacbell.net/guzzi007/schematic...100i_Wiring.gif

*.) Air pressure sensor connector (V11 Sports don't have this one, it's internal to the ECU, but Sport 1100i's have it on the spine - with a connector)

 

And some others:

"Bullet" connectors from the alternator to the voltage regulator.

Battery connections

Any ground connection anywhere

 

I wouldn't go overboard with cleaning these. They don't really need attention unless the bike is ridden frequently in bad weather, washed down with cleaners, a high pressure washer is used or the bike has a lot of miles/time on it. I am guilty of all of the above. By locating weaknesses with my own folly, I can advise others from the lofty position of having "Been there, done that and boy am I stupid..."

[emry]

I normally clean my connectors with some electrical contact cleaner and then use some dielectric grease to keep the contacts from corroding. Most autotmotive manufacturers do this on "sensitive" circuits where a little extra resistance can greatly change the way and engine performs. When I began to check my bike I noticed a distinct lack of any corrosion resistive gel. Not even any on the battery terminals, (even though that is probably the dealers fault.)

[Guest Buck]

Just cleaning the connectors has had a major influence on that vehicle. At some point I will get it all back together and road test it. I expect that it will return to normal, which is to say that it will occasionally stall while idling, stumble at 3500 rpm and behave in that peculiar Magnetti Marelli fashion.

Might I suggest a product called "Stabilant 22"? It is an electrical connection enhancer, and it works! If you put it on the electrical connections in question your poor contact problems will disappear.

 

It's available from Napa and possibly Car Quest auto parts stores, but it may not be known to them as Stabilant 22. Just ask them if they sell a small, expensive bottle of electrical connection enhancer. If they carry it they'll know exactly what you are looking for.

[dlaing]

...and if you really want reliable connections, a good ol soldered joint is the way to go.

On our bike with hundreds of connections, it would be a drag to solder everything. On older bikes, it was an easy solution. But a bit of a drag if you ever had to pull the engine.

[callison]

Looks like the Ghezzi Brian "cross over" (muffler?) is about $515 USD. At least I think "marmitta" (stock-pot according Alta Vista) is what dlaing is looking for. http://www.eurobiketeam.com. You'll have to go to Guzzi Special Kits, click on the steering head bearing image, click on impiante di scarico and then look at the listings. The descriptions and prices are images, not text, so you can't search in the page.

 

This site has some neat stuff, but it is very difficult to navigate.

[dlaing]

Carl, you might also keep an eye on Pierre's progress with his sporti.

He has posted his experiences at http://www.guzzitech.com

Much of what he is talking about is power performance, but he is also looking at getting his map right.

A few of the Centauro owners have had great success with the powercommanders.

Of course if cleaning your contacts helped, and you were getting 20mpg, we might be able to assume your engine may be all coked up with carbon.

I don't know if that means your bug swatter has to go to Betty Ford or for a long hot ride at 140mph across the desert.

I personally feel that gettin ultimap or PCIII is a requirement for our bikes. Does that mean if you are having problems you should just throw a PCIII on? No. sorry if I gave that impression.

I think the bike should be:

1 tuned

2 if anything is still wrong, troubleshooted

3 whether or not something is still wrong, remapped.

I am looking forward to Evoluzione or whatever they are called coming out with diagnostic mapping software. If it does not look good, I want a palm and the Marelli software.

The ability to troubleshoot is the best Performance accessory.

I have passed many bikes that should be faster than mine, because they are out of tune, and my bike is in tune. Likewise I have also been passed when out of tune

[callison]

One thing is for dead certain. If the signals to the ECU are fouled up by poor connections, you will NEVER get the bike in tune. Period. From personal experience, my Sport 1100i started acting up right at 47,000 miles. 9000 miles later it had deteriorated to the point of being dangerous to ride. Cleaning all of the sensor connections put it right back to normal. Sport 1100i normal that is, arguably much worse than anything encountered on a V11 Sport. While the ECU's between the Sport 1100i and the V11 Sport are considerably different, the supporting sensor packages and connectors are very similar. I would say that somewhere around 30,000 miles or two years, the connectors should start receiving periodic attention to prevent degradation. Just for comparison purposes, a (stock) poor running V11 Sport is equal to a Sport 1100i running at it's absolute (stock) best. I emphasize the absolute. There is that much difference (or improvement on the V11 Sport product) between the ECU's and the mapping of the two bikes. I've only put 9500 miles on the V11TT in the six months I've had it, so it hasn't had a chance to exhibit any of the same deterioration as the Sport 1100i, but at this point, I am at least aware that it does eventually occur and I will be alert for it. The V11 Sport doesn't seem to need the PCIII. It wouldn't suffer from having it, it's just that it's EFI weirdness is so much less pronounced than that of the Sport 1100i that it seems inconsequential. The V11 Sport is also a whole bunch stronger in the engine department than the Sport 1100i and since I'm far more acclimated to the Sport 1100i, I don't need more power from the V11 Sport than it already has. Ride wise, the Sport 1100i has a hard seat, a compliant ride and little vibration. The V11 Sport has a harsh ride, a soft seat and lot's of vibration. For two bikes with such a common lineage they are at the same time the same and vastly different. I enjoy them both. Actually all, I enjoy the California and the itty bitty V65C too.

[al_roethlisberger]

Well, I'm starting to feel sorta foolish here.... being mildly technical and mechanically-minded and all. I suspect this is how Rich felt when he couldn't get his bike to run worth a damn for a week or so there

 

Any additional thoughts are appreciated.

 

Here's an excerpt from an email I just sent to Todd Egan(from Guzzitech) after his sending me a couple PCIII maps that should have been fairly generically "close enough" for the current setup on my bike:

 

Well, I tried both maps... but I think my bike is

running soooo badly(that is, it won't run) before

applying the PCIII maps, that it doesn't matter.

 

Although I will say that the "a" map you gave me does

seem to improve things a little.

 

I'm really at a loss at what's up though.

 

I had the bike tuned a few months back at my dealer in

San Mateo, Moto Italiano with their FIM software, and

it was running like a champ.  The best it ever had.

 

Then I drilled out the back plates on the OEM mufflers

as several folks on the www.v11lemans.com site have

done.  For all of them, this produced no ill-effects,

other than being a bit louder.  If they had any change

in performance/driveability, it was minor.  

 

However, as soon as I drilled mine... the bike ran

much more poorly.  So I assumed it just needed to be

tuned again from the modified flow caused by the

modification... which makes sense.  I just guessed

that my bike must have been tuned to within a hair of

my modification "pushing it over the edge" of not

running optimally.

 

The symptoms?:

 

- hard to start... seems to flood.  I can smell gas.  

- catches for a second, stumbles once or twice, then

quits.  I keep doing this gently about 10 times

- manipulating the fuel-enricher lever, it will

eventually start, but runs very rough

- eventually once it warms up, it idles ok, but

stumbles

- when I try to ride it, put it in first gear... hit

about 2k RPM, it kicks, bucks, and almost(usually

does) die.

- trying to actually ride it is like riding a bucking

bronco

 

So, then I added the Stucci x-over...  worse.

 

I actually got it to run one night, but then tried to

ride it around the block and nearly got stranded as it

kept bucking into stalling every time it got around

2-3k RPM.... but if I could rev it up around 4, I

could get it to go, but it was very finicky.

 

Like I said, it appears that the "a" map you provided

has helped all of this a tiny bit, but it still

basically does all of these things.

 

I know that this is sketchy info to go on, but do you

have any thoughts?

 

I'd like to get it running at least well enough to get

it to a local Dynojet center to get a custom map made.

But I'm wondering if there's something fundamental

with some setting, electrical connection, or the ECU

map that I'm going to need fixed before trying to get

the PCIII mapped, as it won't make any difference

before the fundamental problem is fixed.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks for all the help.

 

My next plan is to put my "spare" set of

OEM(undrilled, stock) mufflers back on and see what

happens.

 

al

 

[emry]

Al, I think you have a problem. It must be just bad dumb luck that it choose to manifest itself during your modifications. If you still think that the problem is due to the mods, you could always revert back. Temporaily tape of the drilled holes and install the OEM cross-over. But to be honest I wouldn't bother. How do your plugs look?

[- hard to start... seems to flood. I can smell gas.

- catches for a second, stumbles once or twice, then

quits. I keep doing this gently about 10 times

- manipulating the fuel-enricher lever, it will

eventually start, but runs very rough

- eventually once it warms up, it idles ok, but

stumbles

] These are all signs of flooding, but no carb!! Must be an ignition misfire then. Check to make sure one of your plug wires has not rubbed through the insulation and that it has a good connection into the coil, mine were zip-tied so tight that no only did it begin to chaff, but it almost pulled it self out of the coil.

If the problem is fuel related then I would have to say that it is definately a failed sensor or extremely bad connection. Best of luck.

 

Just a related story, I put a Yosh exhaust on a Suzuki Hayabusa and spent the next three weeks trying to get it to go faster than 80mph!!! Even the Suzuki field rep couldn't fix. Most of the FI system ended up being replaced under warrenty and the old parts sent to Japan for examination. Get this: clogged fuel injector. Up to 65% duty cycle it flowed normal, correct spray pattern, everything. Past that it would choke down to a max of a 15% flow rate. Just freak chance. Sure lost a lot on that exhaust install though.

[RichMaund]

Dumb luck is what killed my bike when I installed the PCIII. That just happened to be the same time that an electrical problem and a mechanical problem reared they're ugly heads all at once. But a week of careful work, heart ache, head scratching and finally beating my skull into the shop wall finally paid off. Once I found and solved the two relatively minor problems, it ran better than ever on the PCIII and has been just fantastic since then.

Never underestimate "Murphy's Law" when working on your motorcycle!

[Guest scott]

Al, it is with great interest that I have been following the "weird" problems you have been experiencing after the recent installation of a cross-over and drilling out the baffles of you stock exhaust. Quit honestly, I don't see this mild modification causing the unridability you are having! I've knocked out the baffles on practically every bike I've owned, and at most I have only had to re-jet the carb by one setting or adjust CO% on fuel injected models (and this after also doing major mods to the intake!).

 

But, and this is where I hope I can help you, your symptoms remind me of a situation I had with my LeMans several months ago. It suddenlly would only run if I kept the rpm's above 4K, and would not idle at all. Upon inspection I found the right rubber manifold (that connects the throttle body to the cylinder head) had pulled slightly apart/away from the cylinder head causing an intake leak of major proportions. A reconnection and tightening of the appropriate clamp eliminated the problem. It's worth an inspection; I hope this helps!

 

Lastly, I've been sitting on the side lines and reading every post I can regarding the PCIII. Frankly, I'm just not sold on it (yet). My bike is stock except for the LeoVince carbon fiber cans I installed (they sound great!). My dealer has "refined " the stock FI system ensuring the TPS and throttle bodies are set to exact specs, and CO is set to 4.5% at idle. From past experience I've found the slightest TPS or throttle body setting really changes drivability; our FI system is very sensitive!! Thus, my bike runs good and I don't want to screw it up by installing a PCIII. It seems far too often individuals install a PCIII only to mask over a stock FI system that is not set up properly.

 

I hope you get your LeMans up and running soon. Let us know what the cause(s) are/were. Also, I'd be happy to sell you a set of stock cans really cheap if you want them.

[al_roethlisberger]

Hi Jeff,

 

...thanks for the offer of the OEM cans, but I already have 2 sets

 

In fact, I was sitting in the middle of my living-room floor tonight with the unmodified set in pieces just seeing how they were built out of curiosity.

 

Not much to tell really. Did you guys know that if you take off the back decorative plate, the metal "pad" on top, and the bolts from the hangar... that the black(or silver on an older V11 Sport) aluminum sleeve will slip right off exposing the SS body, covered with a thin fiberglass sock? Well, it does

 

Of course, that doesn't tell you much, as the can is still completely a sealed mystery. But by looking down into the tail of the pipe with a very small light, I can tell you for sure that there's more to the OEM muffler than meets the eye. What all is in there is still a mystery as I didn't cut the can open(yet), but I know one thing.... it certainly isn't a "straight shot" from the head to tail, so even with drilling out the baffles, there's still some constriction and winding around going on in there. Perhaps one day I'll cut one in half and see.

 

In the meantime, to your suggestion about the intake boot... yep, that's one of the first things on my list. I'm also going to put the unmodified pair of OEM cans back on.. just in case.

 

I agree that drilling out the cans, and installing the x-over should not have produced these results, but never-the-less... it did coincide with this problem. A correlation?? ...probably not, but certainly a coincidence that has proven frustrating.

 

Now, if I can just find a couple or three hours to sit down and play with the bike, maybe I can see what is really up. As it is, I haven't had the time to even lift a wrench to it in a week!

 

al

[al_roethlisberger]

Well, I put the bike back to stock tonight, except for the x-over... with pretty much the same results. I checked the boots, and although my left one is starting to crack a bit where it connects to the airbox, they are still tight and aligned. I checked several of the electrical connections and sensors, and everything there looked good too.

 

But, I pulled the plugs... black as night, all caked up. Cleaned the plugs, but it didn't really run any better.

 

So, the ECU map is apparently way off, maybe I bumped the TPS or coincidentally it just decided to act up. Who knows.

 

But I've put everything back on the bike the way I want it, and will drag the bike up to San Mateo on a trailer this weekend. Have them do their ECU/FIM magic to see what's up.... and probably have them pull the heads and get them shipped off to Mike Rich for their porting. I may go ahead and spring for some Leo Vince mufflers too, but not sure.

 

Then once I get it back from them running acceptably, I'll take it to a local Dyno shop to get the PCIII map custom done, and then I should be set for another new year of riding

 

...but there's nothing else I can do in my garage without some diagnostic software, etc. I've checked all I know to.

 

*sigh*

 

No worries though, it'll be fixed soon enough. It needed to get to the shop to get it's warrantee work done anyway, so they can get it tuned while there.

 

al