Enzo is buying a Ram Clutch

[Enzo]

I wanted to lighten my flywheel on the V11 Sport. Greg Field suggested I go with the MGCycle aluminum single-plate RAM kit. I have ridden the Rossa Mandello with the single plate and know that it is 'catchy.' Supposedly, this kit has fewer parts for less wear.

 

Lighter flywheel effect. Faster revving.

 

Any drawbacks?????

[Steve G.]

Hopefully the kit does not include and aluminium flywheel. I seem to remember a reliability issue is currently in the air with regard to alimunium flywheels on the Scuras and Tennis.

Ciao, Steve G.

[Enzo]

It DOES include an aluminum fly wheel. I haven't heard anything definitive about it.

[al_roethlisberger]

Some related threads:

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...=2659&hl=clutch

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3520

 

There seems to be some confusion with regard to differences between the aftermarket RAM clutches, and a potential "first" and later series of RAM(or maybe non-RAM) single-plate clutches as installed in the Scura, Tenni, and Rosso Mandello.... that may or may not be fundamentally defective....

 

Does that help

 

 

The only thing we know for sure is that 4 or 5 Scura single-plate clutches have failed explosively, and have been reported to the V11LeMans forum and German forums. There may be more that have gone unreported, not yet disintegrated, or maybe this small % is just an unlucky few

 

We really don't know at this point.

 

 

If it were me, and I wanted to reduce rotating mass, I'd just get Ed at Guzzitech to lighten my flywheel until we know more.

 

http://www.guzzitech.com/store/Flywheellightening.html

 

 

al

[Baldini]

Failures on Scuras reported here: cracks around the flywheel centre radiating outwards & flywheel disintegrates. This may be due to bad material, manufacture or assembly & may/may not be generic. If it is a generic fault then failures may be down to type of use. Someone said the latest RAM kit flywheel has a thicker centre than previous. If true then it seems they have recognised a problem. However, For years I have heard of RAM clutches in race bikes making much more power than ours, apparently without problems.

I like the single plate, for sports use it works very well. The other side of the coin is that the bike obviously drops revs quicker too, so feels a little less relaxed, less of the locomotive effect. Take up is very direct, a bit of an on/off feel. When I put one on my Tonti I had to put on new timing marks.

I'd be very interested to know if flywheel has been modified to a thicker material in latest RAM kit. If so I'll probably get one myself & replace Scura original to be on safe side. How much you paying?

It may be worth speaking with RAM direct if anyone knows how?

 

KB

[pete roper]

When I was in Melbourne a couple of weeks ago I and the reptilian Mr. Denny spent a considerable period of time examining one of the *aftermarket* RAM units and while the actual *back* of the flywheel was, I'm pretty sure, the same thickness I still feel there were differences.

 

Look, I'm going to Melbourne again on Thursday. Perhaps I should take the shitterclutch down with me and take some photo's so people can compare for themselves. Moto One is, of course, a long way from where I'm actually going to pick up the 'Vert but if enough people are intersted I'll try to fit it in. No promises though.....

 

Pete

[Baldini]

... if enough people are intersted I'll try to fit it in...

 

Pete, Reckon anyone with a single plate V11 will welcome any light you can shed on this, thanks.

Someone said here latest RAM V11 kit is modified: thicker centre & recessed (flywheel to crank) bolt heads. Are you looking at early or latest (if it exists) aftermarket RAM? KB

[jrt]

So how much mass are you really going to lose, and is it going to be worth the money?

The RAM clutch weighs in (complete) at 10 pounds. I have one on my Eldorado (GT850). It is not grabby, and the pull is lighter than the stock Eldo clutch and about the same as the V11. The hydraulic clutch does not make that a fair comparison, though. I don't know what the V11 clutch assembly weighs in at.

On the RAM clutch I installed, the flywheel-to-crank bolts were not recessed. Also, there is a large washer that has holes for each crank bolt, not 6 individual washers (as pictured on the instructions).

 

Jason

[Enzo]

Here is a picture of the kit from MGCycle. It is five hundred dollars - $498 U.S.

 

 

I'll call them this morning and ask about a thickening in the center etc.

[al_roethlisberger]

And for an even "lighter" RAM clutch, here is one after Ed at Guzzitech got his hands on it

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.guzzitech.com/store/Flywheellightening.html

 

Complete CNC flywheel and ring gear lightening jobs start at $300, including balancing and return shipping. Featherweight lightening jobs for racing applications are also available. Turnaround time is typically 3-4 weeks.

 

 

 

One of these days I'll have to rev a bike with one of these lighter clutches to see what I think, as compared to the standard dual-plate unit on my LeMans.

 

To the original question about "any drawbacks", but beyond the current discussion about reliability, I wonder how the lightened engine(whether by lighter clutch, rods, pistons, or a combination) "rides" in the real world as compared, and depending on one's individual riding-style, what might be actually preferred or considered a "drawback" in that regard

 

I suspect that since I am not an aggressive rider, and am sensitive to vibes, I may .... for example.... prefer the a heavier flywheel *shrug* I have no idea at this point though, as I don't have a practical frame of reference to compare.

 

Does anyone have any significant seat time on both types of clutches on similar bikes, say comparing a standard V11 Sport, to a Scura... and if so, what are your thoughts?

 

I don't plan to swap out my clutch any time soon, but it would be good to have a general idea of what I would prefer to replace it with once the original clutch wears out one of these days in the far flung future.

 

BTW, for an average rider, how long(mileage) does a dual-plate clutch tend to last?

 

al

[Enzo]

I have ridden the Rosso (it had RAM - does it come this way?) and noticed right off how 'grabby' the single plate clutch is. It would have been easy to stall it out at a light it is so 'catchy.' So, it may be more of a hassle in town going from light to light. Also, I am sure that the throttle is more touchy at low speeds. All draw backs. Harder engine braking also. Yet, in aggressive driving - my usual mode of action - these same 'faults' would be more fun to me.

 

I am always trying to squeeze out more blood from the V11. It is just my style of riding. I am quite happy with the results. I WILL be ordering the RAM, and, in the mean time, I am also having my head milled for more compression. (I was told by George Dean that porting is useless outside of full throttle application on the track. If you are not using FULL THROTTLE, porting actually DECREASES velocity of air flow. Not good.) So, George thinks that milling would be the best bang for the buck in the real world.

 

Stand by......

[al_roethlisberger]

  (I was told by George Dean that porting is useless outside of full throttle application on the track.  If you are not using FULL THROTTLE, porting actually DECREASES velocity of air flow.  Not good.) So, George thinks that milling would be the best bang for the buck in the real world.

 

Stand by......

38543[/snapback]

 

 

I'd have to take difference with this statement on porting, by saying, like many things... it depends Porting is not just grinding out the ports. Depending on what type of riding and target performance one is "porting" the head to support, you may actually weld in more material then shape and smooth. It is as much an art as science, and there are many different porting options, sometimes called "Stages", that can vastly affect how it is executed, and the performance it delivers.

 

But yes, it is easy to remove too much material, increasing the cross-section, and decreasing velocity(if CFM remains constant or decreases). But if porting increases CFM along with increased cross-section, velocity can remain constant, or even increase.... so it just depends.

 

Also, one of the primary goals of porting is to smooth the airflow through the intake, increasing velocity, not necessarily simply increasing the cross-section/volume. In fact, when Mike Rich ported my heads, his main concern was his difficulty working with the MG head to work a smooth flow, but not increase cross-section such that optimal velocity was negatively impacted.

 

For the street, he has a "Stage I" and "Stage II" porting job and takes into account the needs/goals a street rider may have in mind.... and for the track... "Stage III" that as described, is like your description... WOT, for race applications.

 

I don't know that porting is an amazing panacea, nor can really say how much bang-for-the-buck it provides. But Mike's "Stage II" was supposedly good for three/four HP(gross) per cylinder if I recall.

 

 

 

Also, although you can deck the heads a bit, be careful not to do it too much, otherwise you start to mess with the squish-band, and valve-piston clearances. The former will exacerbate detonation issues, and the latter... well

 

Mike was only able to get an estimated .25 point of CR(probably less) increase by milling my heads down to within what he thought was a safe and effective margin. I don't recall what that margin was, but I'm sure he'd be happy to chat with you if interested.

 

www.mikerichmotorsports.com

 

al

[Enzo]

Good info. Yes, if you broaden 'porting' to mean even building up a port with more material - making the cross-section SMALLER, then, yes, I agree with you. It depends on your application. Keeping all this in mind, some sort of porting could benefit any rider.

 

We'll see what is involved in my milling. I'll try to get details on actual amounts and readings before and after.

[Skeeve]

I have ridden the Rosso (it had RAM - does it come this way?) and noticed right off how 'grabby' the single plate clutch is.  It would have been easy to stall it out at a light it is so 'catchy.'  So, it may be more of a hassle in town going from light to light.  Also, I am sure that the throttle is more touchy at low speeds.  All draw backs.  Harder engine braking also.  Yet, in aggressive driving - my usual mode of action - these same 'faults' would be more fun to me.

 

I am always trying to squeeze out more blood from the V11.  It is just my style of riding.  I am quite happy with the results.  I WILL be ordering the RAM, and, in the mean time, I am also having my head milled for more compression.  (I was told by George Dean that porting is useless outside of full throttle application on the track.  If you are not using FULL THROTTLE, porting actually DECREASES velocity of air flow.  Not good.) So, George thinks that milling would be the best bang for the buck in the real world.

 

Stand by......

38543[/snapback]

 

Enzo mi amigo:

 

The aluminum single plate clutch is likely quieter than a lightened stocker, but it won't be stronger, since the lightening actually makes the stocker stronger by removing the weight that is trying to tear itself apart: the aluminum one still has the mass in the wrong places...

 

WRT porting: you have the common misconception that "porting" means making the ports bigger; it doesn't, per se. What proper porting tries to do is to smooth out the flow path, and keep the velocity of air moving into the chamber as high as possible at all times. Buncha info on this on the various hot rod sites [check articles at Hot Rod mag online, others of that ilk...]

 

You're not going to be able to raise the compression too much w/o going to fancy fuel or dual plugs. With your superb 2->1 exhaust [check out the new Griso! Ever get the feeling MG has been cribbing from your notes? ], you stand to gain more from porting than anyone still running a variation of the stock exhaust system.

 

Save the money on the new clutch & just get your stocker lightened, and put the $$ saved into a good porting job [the defacto person for this wrt MG seems to be Mike Rich.] You can always get some high comp. pistons if you still want moooorrrrrrrre powerrrrrr!