Clutchless changes

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

I did list the benefits on the previous page. Even numbered them 1 - 2 - 3.

I checked your 1 - 2 - 3 and found your technique. It is not a list of benefits. It seems your benefits are personal satisfaction and possibly less false neutrals.

I have had no false neutrals since installing the ergal shifter kit from Guzzi and I get my personal satisfaction from wheelies and burnouts.

I do applaud your opinion, however I myself do not see any benefits beyond personal satisfaction.

[Guest Bruce]

If you're doing it right ( slight pressure, don't stomp on anything ) the only thing you'll notice is a change in engine pitch. I do it for three reasons:

 

1) It seems to put no stress on the gearbox

2) Had carpal tunnel symptoms in the left hand

3) It's pretty cool

 

Had the transmission apart at 9700 miles and was told everything looked perfect. Also, started using one of those grip balls and the carpal tunnel symptoms have not re-appeared. My biggest concern are false neutrals, here you really need to get the engine speed just right to avoid some nasty music from below.

[Janusz]

As I said before you will never get false neutrals when upshifting clutchless Bruce. Since your shifts are totally stressless there also will be no grinding as dogs easily slide from lower into higher gear. If you observed your tacho when properly shifting the revs will go down just a few hundreds revs before the engine, a split second later, starts driving forward again. Almost like automatic transmission.

 

On a wide ratio gearbox, like cruisers, lower gears etc., the revs go down more and that is why you would use some clutch; but it also has to be a very quick shift to avoid high stress on the gearbox.

Nothing wrecks the box more then slow, lazy shifts. Clutch shifts, by definition are much longer then clutchless and that is why more taxing on the box.

 

My gearbox was taken apart at 34,000 km and looked like new too, Bruce.

 

 

 

You could list them 1- 368, but your verbal flagellation isn't going to convince any experienced rider to change what they find successful.

He may have changed my mind.

I'll keep you posted.

Please pray that I keep all my teeth

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Good for you dlaing - the ability to change quickly when presented with a new information is a sign of wisdom and intelligence. I was using clutch for shifting for years and years before taking racing schools.

[kenr]

I think I am also game to continue trying to master it a little while as long as I don't keep grinding my gears too much in the attempt !

 

What little I've experimented so far I have to agree that when it works you get a very sweet gearchange. Of course when it don't work that noise hurts

 

Ken

[Baldini]

...the ability to change quickly when presented with a new information is a sign of wisdom and intelligence...

 

...as is the ability to permit cantankerous old men the privelege of going about their business in the ways they have always known, even as they pour scorn on your wonderful discoveries...

 

but ...again - those who see no benefit in John's method - have you ever tried it?

 

One benefit (1) - Clutchless upshift is slicker & quicker.... ever tried to hang with a CBR long enough down the straight to have some chance on the brakes & in the bends? You know you need help...

 

Thank you gentlemen, & goodnight.

 

KB

[rktman1]

I feel I must defend myself. My name has been mentioned here several times, and not very complimentary I might add. I just offered up a technique (to Kenr) that I use when shifting. I didn't say it was the only way. I didn't say that if you don't shift my way, you're wrong. If you take the time to read my FIRST append (in another thread) you'll see that I wasn't trying to convert anyone.

 

BTW, my shifting technique is just as quick as a normal clutch shift. I don't hold the shift lever up for a long time, as was implied here. It may not be as "satisfying" as a clutchless shift but I almost never miss an upshift and the gears never grind.

 

Tim

[Janusz]

May I point out a faster way to get power to the ground, the power shift! Simply pin the engine to the stops and leave it there[ don't worry the rev limiter will look after things] and go through the gears using the clutch.

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Attempting to follow your method will surely lead to overreving and valve bend Steve. Have you really try it? Rev limiter will cut ignition but the heavy inertia will spin declutched engine above the limit and cause valve float. This is evactly what I would do if you asked me to wreck the engine in a hurry.

 

No, what you CAN safely do if you really want to have fun is to pin the engine in lower gear (not first) and the very moment when rev limiter starts kicking in upshift WITHOUT THE CLUTCH. This is the fastest way to accelerate safely.

 

Declutching at high revs close to redline = bent valves.

 

By the way; if anybody feels offended by me I want to apologize. This was surely not my intention. As far as being an old fart let me bet that I am probably the oldest one on this thread.

[Steve G.]

John,

I have very thick skin, you cannot offend me. I on the other hand must keep myself in considerable check at all times, or I wouldn't have a job, would be in jail, and would be banned from every forum of every description on the internet.

Regarding my comment on pinning the engine etc, can't you see that I was just joking around? I was bringing up a procedure that I feel was just as pointless and silly as learning to shift without a clutch.

Have I tried clutchless shifting? Of course, on ratted old bikes I used to have. I am good at it, and while it sounds neat and seemless, much like a tightly set up automatic transmission in a car, I see no benifit to propelling myself forward faster by using this method, I mean heck, you have to roll off the power man! Also consider that you are actually having to press on a shift linkage, and on a shifter fork to make sure you engage the next gear fully, and I've seen bent shifter forks tons of times.

Now, I guess we won't be coming to an agreement about this procedure, and that's cool. We all know that motorcyclists are individualists, that's why we operate a vehicle that is primarily for one person. Just please don't try telling me that clutch operated shifts are worse on a gearbox than clutchless shifting. Please!!!! I can't take this laughter any more, the face aches, my god!

I can tell you that if I were to lend my bike out to someone, only to find out he was practicing his clutchless shifts, man, he'd be in a world of hurt!

Like I said, I'm glad it's your bike!

Ciao, Steve G.

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

By the way; if anybody feels offended by me I want to apologize. This was surely not my intention. As far as being an old fart let me bet that I am probably the oldest one on this thread.

Good on ya, mate! There shouldn't be anyone offended by the banter on this site! I find it the most civilized forum I have ever followed and if we didn't present our opinions in as fine a manner as folks like Janusz or Steve G or Brian Robson or Antonio or Jaap or even Tx Redneck then I wouldn't be here writing this! This makes it all worthwhile. I'm glad we can butt heads over a topic like this and maybe learn a little about ourselves in the process. I want to be able to say what I think and then hear what everyone else thinks without belittlement or derision.

I make a toast to the best forum on the net! To the V11Lemans forum, I say 'Salute!'

[Guest Bruce]

Hear! Hear!

 

Well said my man.

[BrianG]

As far as being an old fart let me bet that I am probably the oldest one on this thread.

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Bet!!

 

You lose!!

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

By the way AL, I hadn't forgotten you or all the others. Just not enough space for everyone!

[Janusz]

Bet!! 

 

You lose!!

38980[/snapback]

 

Well, let's check it then:

March 8, 1947

[al_roethlisberger]

By the way AL, I hadn't forgotten you or all the others. Just not enough space for everyone!

38983[/snapback]

 

 

eh?

 

 

Jim, you're starting to worry me. You might want to shelve that 19th century hat forming hobby of yours. I think the mercury is getting to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

* http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-mad2.htm

[al_roethlisberger]

BTW, back on topic.... a very interesting discussion, and I don't doubt that if done correctly, clutchless shifts can be fun and safe.

 

But for my own peace of mind, and the fact that I'm not an aggressive rider, I'll personally stick with using the clutch for the most part methinks

 

al