ECU

[luhbo]

Ok, you wanted it.

I have 2 part throttle A/F measurements from my bike:

 

The rich condition at 3-4 % TP is at approx 1700 rpm in neutral at standstill. A graph does not make this clearer.

I am looking forward to change this with Ultimap.

67428[/snapback]

 

 

Thx for the CR hint.

Have you already made any changes to the map or are the three graphs taken under the same conditions?

 

Hubert

[motoguzznix]

Weld in Bungs? hook up to coils? hook up to tps? or does it hook up to the ECU like a PCIII?

I had to connect to the coil minus and to the TPS signal wire. +- from the ignition switch is also requiered. That took some time as I installed a center plug to allow quick removing of the stuff. I actually welded threads onto both exhaust tubes to make measurements on both cylinders.

Dave

I would suggest you make yourself measurements as every bike is different. Conclusions from other bikes can cause major errors.

Hubert

My maps are unmodified till now - I am awaiting the ultimap software this weeek.

[BrianG]

EDIT I deleted this post, because it is in it entirety here:

http://www.megasquirt.info/PWC/LSU4.htm

or if lost check go here and look for article on LSU4:

http://www.megasquirt.info/

67229[/snapback]

 

Well, thanks for the reference!

 

I am always pleased to become more informed about these issues by the assistance of friends on this forum.

 

Again, this proves to be one of the best forums on the web!

[moto]

I suspect that if it reads too lean, you enrichen it, and then it reads nicely, then it is doing its job well.

This is not a valid assumption, as "reading nicely" has no direct relationship to how the engine is running. One would need to determine what "reading nicely" for a given rpm/throttle position combination consists of when the engine is known to be running optimally. Even then, I think you might find it could "read nicely" under a variety of conditions, i.e. the reading being the same does not guarantee the same mixture.

Perhaps not as well as a dyno run where power is optimized, but considering all the numbers above 14:1 and below 13:1 that you can improve on, the WBO2 with data logging is worth its weight in gold.

If those numbers actually consistently related to mixture strength in a universally repeatable manner, you would be correct.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[dlaing]

The following is a response to a post elsewhere, that I would prefer to answer here:

David, now before you get caught in your own landslide... you told me in person that the software has been very glitchy, and you had yet to hear back from any one there for support. So has this all changed?

  Having control of all of that data might be good, but, really... what are *you* going to do with it, aside from taking stabs and thinking you are "improving" your bike. I've seen this on the dyno now a few hundred times, and can atest that most people are only making it worse.

  If you want to spend hours on the dyno, there are tons of ways out there currently to do this. Buy the FIM software and spend days on the dyno for a reflash. Timing issues, only to eliminate pinging will take you a solid hour or so with someone who really knows what the hell they're doing.

  When I did some initial research with timing at Dynojet, there was basically no gains to be had with ignition, unless you have bumped the compression significantly, or added something such as a turbo.

  That being said, hopefully next week I'll be able to *finally* offer a timing module for the PCIIIusb to eliminate the "ping" issue on V11S motors.

 

  This isn't meant as a bash, just stating some simple facts.

 

  My $.02 as always.

67600[/snapback]

The software is not what I would call glitchy.

Everything that I know works, works solidly.

I wanted to give Wayne a chance to answer questions before I got deeply into the negatives.

But on the surface, I covered all the negatives.

More deeply, the documentation is lacking, and the tech support should be better, as I sent 3 messages over a month ago and got no response.

I held back from criticizing the TuneBoy the same way I have held back from criticizing the PCIII and tuning link.

Since you forced me to be fully candid about Tuneboy, it is only fair that I am now candid about PCIII and TuneEdit.

I apparently am the owner of the one in million pcIIIs that actually failed.

The fact that DynoJet claims such odds of reliability when I one bad unit in a million flawless units, does not lend itself to my believing them to be credible, and it does not give me faith that I can rely on the PCIII as I can rely on the ECU.

My other peeve is with the Tuning Link and the inabilities of the lambda sensor to accurately determine the correct A:F ratio.

I got my bike dyno tuned by Dyno Dudes and the bike ended up pinging worse after they tuned it.

They said that is impossible because they enriched it, but clearly from the map, they made it run leaner where it was pinging. Pinging shown in red.

0 2 5 10 20 40 60 80 100

500 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

1000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

1500 0 26 23 14 27 11 17 20 20

2000 0 0 17 0 5 -3 -2 -12 2

2500 0 0 15 17 -2 2 9 3 17

3000 0 0 0 20 1 17 15 21 29

3500 0 0 0 11 5 3 15 11 15

4000 0 0 0 17 7 1 14 22 24

4500 0 0 0 18 13 4 9 15 4

5000 0 0 0 18 20 4 -3 -6 -1

5500 0 0 0 0 24 1 -6 -7 -4

6000 0 0 0 0 0 1 -8 -6 -7

7000 0 0 0 0 0 -2 -2 -13 -10

8000 0 0 0 0 0 0 -3 -14 -17

I got no answer back from them as they obviously did not want to address the problem.

In my opinion, the problem is has more to do with timing than richness and to the credit of the tuning link the A/F ratio may have been correct and the timing at fault, but leaning it out is not what needed to happen. This is something that a TuningLink will not deal with as well as "taking stabs" at re-mapping by trial and error and analysis of PCIII maps and Wide Band Commander data logs.

I was also hoping that I could TuningLink my bike, and transcribe the map to the ECU, but I need Wayne's tech support to determine if it works...

I have not lost complete faith in the DynoJet TuningLink process, especially if done one cylinder at a time. I can only imagine what a WBO2 sensor does when one cylinder runs rich and one lean and the sensor is reading the mix of both.

Great News about the availability of the timing module. Too bad it was not available two months ago, or you might have had me lining up for that and a USB PCIII.

I may still go with DynoJet for a Wide Band commander as they do write first class software, unless Todd can talk me out it.

Sorry, for the "ecu ad nauseum".

[Cliff]

I may still go with DynoJet for a Wide Band commander as they do write first class software,

 

You should ask Wayne what he thinks of their world class software.

 

Re your map: why not richen it up yourself where it is pinging.

 

One thing your map shows clearly is the lack of adjustment of the lower left half of the map ( high RPM, low throttle). Its not easy to do this area on a dyno but on the road you're frequently in this area and it has a big impact on drivability.

[dlaing]

You should ask Wayne what he thinks of their world class software.

67800[/snapback]

Hey Wayne! What do you think of DynoJet's software?

Honestly, I have had no problem with their software.

And from what I can tell, Wayne's software is rock solid, but needs documentation and some re-labling of some of the features. If you look at the properties of his software, it says it is a beta version, and he did sell it to me at a reduced price, so my expectations at this point are not great. Right now, I am just tweaking the base map and the timing map, but I want to do more! And I want some feedback from Wayne.

Re your map: why not richen it up yourself where it is pinging.

67800[/snapback]

(?)

I did just that, about 10 numbers, and it did get rid of the pinging in all but few circumstances.

But I suspect retarding the timing is the better solution considering that the TuningLink indicated that my Air/Fuel ratio was optimal.

I still think PCIIIs have some benefits like ease of use and cheap custom dyno maps, even if some of the maps have flaws.

I am not selling my PCIII, because it gives me access to the Tuning Link Dyno Mapping.

But the ability to map timing and more than just the fuel map, is why I went with TuneBoy....and for the diagnostic software that is not ready....yet.

[motoguzznix]

David

 

I am not selling my PCIII

I would'nt bother with the PC when you now are able to remap the original maps. And I would never mix the systems as you never can be sure in which manner these interfere. Throw it away and spend the money to remap your bike on a dyno that is operated by an experienced people. I think you can't get better value for money.

 

the TuningLink indicated that my Air/Fuel ratio was optimal

How can the software show this?

The tuning link shows you numbers that relate to the amount of fuel injected, but it cannot tell you how this fuel is burnt. Without exhaust gas analysis and dyno runs in addition it is difficult to adress the hints in the maps.

 

Ernst

[dlaing]

How can the software show this?

The tuning link shows you numbers that relate to the amount of fuel injected, but it cannot tell you how this fuel is burnt. Without exhaust gas analysis and dyno runs in addition it is difficult to adress the hints in the maps.

Ernst

68031[/snapback]

I should have said"what the tuning link considers optimal"

The difference between what tuning link or a WBO2 considers optimal and what is optimal appears to vary, which is half of what this whole ECU thread is about.

I am not sure how valuable Tuning Link and WBO2 are..and not everyone, including the professionals on this list, agree.

That is why I am still on the fence and won't sell my PCIII.(at the moment it is off the bike, and the only reason I keep it is for Tuning Link, and maybe using the buttons for road tuning.

Who are the professionals?

Derek Capito from MotoLab tuning center, has made a very convincing argument that the WBO2 and Tuning Link sensors do not obtain enough data to analyze the emission thoroughly enough to create an accurate map.

Todd Eagan, the motivator behind PCIIIs existing for Guzzis other than ours, has suggested, and many have verified through testimonials, that the Tuning Link works great.

Cliff Jeffries, Father of the MY15M and Optimiser, has suggested that he gets excellent results using a WBO2 in closed loop to modify the map output under real world conditions.

Wayne McDonald, Father of TuneBoy, has perhaps wisely stayed out of the WBO2 argument, but his product is supposed to support interpreting PCIII maps.

So here I sit in the middle arguing with everyone, wondering if I should buy a WBO2 datalogger, a colortune, do a tuning link run everytime I modify my bike, trust a local dyno-tuner, or ride 500 miles for an appointment with MotoLab, whom I trust and agree would give the best result, but at a price I am not sure is worth it.

I am kind of inclined to get the datalogger....about $600 after bungs, etc.

[luhbo]

.....

So here I sit in the middle arguing with everyone, wondering if I should buy a WBO2 datalogger, a colortune, do a tuning link run everytime I modify my bike, trust a local dyno-tuner, or ride 500 miles for an appointment with MotoLab, whom I trust and agree would give the best result, but at a price I am not sure is worth it.

I am kind of inclined to get the datalogger....about $600 after bungs, etc.

......

68046[/snapback]

 

You better just have fun with your Guzzi. Listen to her! Generations of drivers have optimised their bikes with only the feedback their back and probably the plugs have given them and probably all of them had fun with this procedure.

 

As today there are no jets, needles and things left to play around with, people have to buy different things to find their joy. The best for me is what pleases me most. I know at least five persons personaly that would be very unhappy with the things how I have them arranged. That's only natural. One doesn't speak english, one get's nervous as soon as his engine revs over 7000, one want's his bike original and untouched, one drives Harley and one always the newest Japer. So what system or setup is better than the other? All of us are pleased with our bikes and all their components, and when we leave together we come home together. There's a life besides Guzzi and it's EFI

 

Hubert

[big J]

I can't take much more of this.

 

Isn't there someone somewhere who can help dlaing out,ffs.

[dlaing]

I can't take much more of this.

 

Isn't there someone somewhere who can help dlaing out,ffs.

68055[/snapback]

Thanks for the motivating words.

I just need to spend more time riding and actually tuning rather than searching for holy grails.

I am actually pretty happy doing the tried and true method:

"Generations of drivers have optimised their bikes with only the feedback their back and probably the plugs have given them and probably all of them had fun with this procedure."

Perhaps I would be depriving myself of the joy of doing it "old school", if I shelled out money towards the "better" solutions.

With a few tweaks of TuneBoy, the bike now runs better than ever.

Refining it will be tricky, but I have patience and determination....experience will come with time and effort. Verification will be harder to come by, and the nay sayers will be dubious at best.

One thing that I have determined with opinionated certainty, is that variations in weather greatly change the needs of the mixture and timing.

I believe the altitude and temperature trims need more work than the base map.

But the base fuel map and timing map are first on my hit list.

[luhbo]

Thanks for the motivating words.

I just need to spend more time riding and actually tuning rather than searching for holy grails.

.....

I believe the altitude and temperature trims need more work than the base map.

But the base fuel map and timing map are first on my hit list. 

68066[/snapback]

 

A lot will not recognise it even when you have found it. "I always thought it was a green cup, no, this blue is rubbish". Would you go back restart searching to find a green one? Don't get trapped in an endless loop.

[dlaing]

And I keep running into the Knights that say Ni!

Just kidding! EVERYBODY'S opinions, experiences, thoughts, facts, etc. are appreciated and useful, despite the disagreements.

The point that keeps nagging at me is Todd's saying:

taking stabs and thinking you are "improving" your bike. I've seen this on the dyno now a few hundred times, and can atest that most people are only making it worse.

So, at this point I know I can make it run more agreeably by merely enrichening and retarding the timing. Pinpointing where to do it is trickier. And maximizing power is even more tricky, if not impossible.

Right now, I am judging where to change the mixture by looking at other maps, listening to the engine for hints of leanness, feeling for vibration that may indicate leaness or one cylinder running weaker. Even the pinging could be one cylinder running weaker. (Or actually the stronger cylinder pinging because of increased load)

I am running 87OCTANE so that when I move back to 91, I can guarantee no pinging.

I used to be able to nearly perfectly balance my V65 carbs by ear....but I can't do it with this bike.

So, I think I need a little more feed back from the bike to tell me what to do.

An oxygen sensor, two bung holes, and datalogger will probably be around 500-600 US Dollars.

I expect the price for this to fall within a couple years and right now, it is out of my budget.

But for only 169 US dollars, I can get a TechnoResearch Digital Dashboard, that reads out many of the ECU parameters, so I can drive along and make a note that at 80% throttle and 5100 RPMs and 25C air and 50C engine the bike pinged or felt too rich, or vibrated, or lacked power.

This is easier than trying to read the marks on my throttle grip while motoring along...

Although maybe I could just hook up a cheap digital 0.00 to 20.00 volt meter to the TPS.

[Guest ratchethack]

And I keep running into the Knights that say Ni! 

Strange...I've been known to procure a shrubbery or two (in my high-altitude fire-trail riding days) without ever running into those guys...