ECU

[jrt]

Guess I'll just need to add more features.

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Like fringe?

[dlaing]

Like fringe?

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How about a 100,000 Volt ignition booster and a closed loop bio feedback feature that senses when you are too fat and sends you a jolt!

[dlaing]

But seriously, Cliff, the bikes without closed loop do have the fittings in the headers of lamda sensors, and that is an upgrade that nobody but you would probably offer.

But now you might have to figure out how to modify not only the fuel map but also the target map that RacerX and WMcDonald are conflicting over.

Of course you may have already figured that out???

And don't forget, some of us are gonna fry are ECUs and come running to you for the superior upgrade.

[Guest wmcdonal]

2 points I don't like:

- keys. As a IT professional I see a lot of problems for customers caused by problems

  with licence keys. It is a way to protect your investment but it is not helpful to your customers.

- a bit pricey. compared to My15M where you get both H/W and S/W for less money,

  but maybe it just us old hackers who likes the openess of My15M. I'm sure your package

  is a nice product for the average Joe not interested in hacking around for it's own sake.

 

I am open to idea's.

The key is a one time thing to unlock the ECU, once it is unlocked the key is not needed.

Without this I would sell one copy of the software and it would soon be all over the net for free. Good for others but not for me.

I did not know you could get the My15M for less than $310, I guess I may have to revise the prices.

 

Cliff.

Have you thought of expanding your product to the new Ducati's (59M ECU) ?

 

In reply to Todd's comments.

1. My first post said I had not updated the web page for the Guzzi, this means the comparo is between the PCIII for the Sagem ECU and the TuneBoy/TuneEdit.

2. Giving DynoJet credit for features they currently don't sell is something only DynoJet would do. From what I have read they have been saying ignition support will be coming since the PCIII USB was released.

3. The altitude problem with the PCIII is a design flaw in the code. Example. A harley is tuned at sea level with a PCIII then taken to Sturgess, the owner complains it is running rich.

The reason for this is in the way DynoJet calculate trims. (I have tested this with a scope and an ECU running at a fixed RPM on a test bench).

Say you have a 2 m/s pulse.

The PCIII would add .2 m/s for a 10% trim. this is because they disregard the time it takes to turn the injector on. This time is about .8 m/s.

This means the true fuel flow time is 1.2 m/s. So .2 m/s is a 16% trim.

Now take that bike up in altitude and the pulse width drops to 1.5 m/s.

PCIII will add .15 m/s (It's 10%).

The injector dead time is constant (based on battery voltage) so the turn on time is still .8 m/s making the true fuel flow time .7 m/s.

.15 m/s as a percentage of .7 is 21%.

This means at sea level the trim was 16% and at altitude the trim is 21%.

This flaw is reduced at larger throttle openings so it mostly effects low throttle response.

I hope that explains that statement.

I should point out that the comparo does not include features the PCIII has on models that TuneBoy does not support. For example the features of a PCIII on a BMW don't come into it if you are shopping for a solution for a Triumph. I will try and make that clear when I update the web pages.

[Cliff]

Cliff.

Have you thought of expanding your product to the new Ducati's (59M ECU) ?

Is that the one in the monsters that looks like 2 15M together?

 

Anyway good on you for doing a version for the 15M and for doing a great job on it. It is a must have for anyone with a 15M. In fact I had a query for My15M this morning and I told him to make sure to have a look at tune boy also.

 

Fortunately you can't do anything for the older controllers that are EPROM based.

 

Maybe its time to look at knock detection.

 

Couple of questions for you.

Does the 15M only have one o2 target voltage?

Does it work with the newer sensors that give inverted voltages?

 

If you're near Sydney at any time we should get together.

[RacerX]

His pricing plan took a little reading to understand.

It would help if he did not have a high contrast image behind the text.

He sells a kit that has one key for one bike for $310, about the price of a PCIIIUSB... and four bikes 640 (160 per bike) Anybody in So-Cal want to split expenses? Or would that be a violation of the software license????

 

Doesn't help a Tuning Link operator much... and the end user is pretty helpless without them.

 

Dynojet is now finalizing a Timing Module plug-in for PCIIIusb.. But it is correct until we can buy it. And don't forget, some of us are gonna fry are ECUs and come running to you for the superior upgrade.

 

Ok, David, so you'll be in line when it arrives then? All of this work and push of late to develop these things warrants litte-to-no sales for these with marques like Guzzi.

Why/how are you going to fry an ECU? Hasn't happened on any that I've known of, and they can be found regularly on eBay for about $100 ($400~ish new).

 

Also David, you might be forgetting that 02-sensored bikes run a VERY limited portion of the map (low throttle settings) in closed loop. All else is still open loop.

 

I understand your point. I just checked the PC-site, the new BMW PC is already just one box, all included, even the sensor.

But the rest, they must buy all these mentioned options separately if they decide for a PC. Isn't it this, what causes all this argueing?

 

No. The BMW unit does not contain everything. It only includes a adj. a/f ratio target 02 sensor from within the PCIIIusb (for the very limited closed loop portion of the throttle), nothing else. You should go back and read the paragraphs posted in my other posts re: 02 sensor based mapping. The "plug-in modules" (and Dynojet also makes a fuel-kill option for racebikes if you've seen), are Dynojet's solution to continue to offer easy "options" like these to the PCIIIusb. It is after all, about making money for them, and they lead the pack right now.

 

My $.02,

ToddGuzziTech.com

[RacerX]

In reply to Todd's comments.

1. My first post said I had not updated the web page for the Guzzi, this means the comparo is between the PCIII for the Sagem ECU and the TuneBoy/TuneEdit.

2. Giving DynoJet credit for features they currently don't sell is something only DynoJet would do.

3. The altitude problem with the PCIII is a design flaw in the code.

 

1. Ok.

2. Fair enough.

3. I'll get back to you after I digest it... but my initial reply is to say I haven't experienced any "issues" at alititude with the 15M. I have well over 100k on my Jackal/15M and it's been through everything imaginable... nor I have I ever heard of this with those with even more mileage then me. I think it's safe to say that while the 15M is far from perfect, it's not too damn bad in the grand scheme of things. I just remembered that the PCIII does NOTHING to the mixture based on barometric pressure... it is solely the ECU's responsibility. It's proven to work very well as I've witnessed. I am however, awaiting words from Michael B/Dynojet on this topic.

wmcdonal, I've been following a thread on the Aprilia board where mapping prices with Tuneboy are bringing $1200-2000USD. True?

 

I sill have yet to see that you've addressed my comments of Tuning Link Center use fees(?).

 

I look forward to more dialogue,

ToddGuzziTech.com

Edited January 4, 2005 by RacerX

[Skeeve]

Doesn't help a Tuning Link operator much... and the end user is pretty helpless without them.

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Not certain I see what you mean: the TL operator buys the hardware & software pkg., then a new key @ $150 anytime he needs to tune a new customer's ECU. As long as the key isn't lost, he can tune & retune that ECU anytime needed/the customer can foot the bill.

 

At least, that's how I read the page.

 

Frankly, I'm apalled at the rates being asked for running a bike thru the tuning link anyway: AFAIC, for what DynoJet is asking for the PCIII, it should come with a certificate for a gratis run on a tuning-link equipped dyno. But then I'm the sort of cheapskate who would buy the individual carb jets instead of spending 5x as much for the "kit" back when Bernoulli did all the fuel metering...

 

So far, for the money the My15M seems like the only worthwhile investment, as it is the only solution that is more-or-less "stand alone" & doesn't require some sort of additional outlay to someone with a dyno anytime you want to make a novel change to your engine mods. Fortunately for me, I'm the sort of cheapskate who can't afford to wander far off the "as equipped" mark, so it's all rather moot for me...

[RacerX]

Not certain I see what you mean: the TL operator buys the hardware & software pkg., then a new key @ $150 anytime he needs to tune a new customer's ECU. As long as the key isn't lost, he can tune & retune that ECU anytime needed/the customer can foot the bill.

 

Frankly, I'm apalled at the rates being asked for running a bike thru the tuning link anyway: AFAIC, for what DynoJet is asking for the PCIII, it should come with a certificate for a gratis run on a tuning-link equipped dyno.

 

 

One key for each ECU = $150 (cost for the dyno operator for each bike), and this isn't something you have sitting on the shelf when you need another one.

 

There is a ton of expense to own and operate a dyno, much less if it is your sole source of income.

You need a a/f dyno to build a proper map for *your* bike... otherwise you'll spend an eternity thinking you've got it right. Anyone who's had a proper dyno-built map will atest.

 

If Cliff's My15M ECU would allow Tuning Link mapping input (and I see this one brewing at the local pub already)... you'd be getting somewhere.

 

ToddGuzziTech.com

p.s. Another one added to the "satisfied" customer list; http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4227

[Guest Jeff in Ohio]

Not certain I see what you mean: the TL operator buys the hardware & software pkg., then a new key @ $150 anytime he needs to tune a new customer's ECU. As long as the key isn't lost, he can tune & retune that ECU anytime needed/the customer can foot the bill.

 

At least, that's how I read the page.

 

Frankly, I'm apalled at the rates being asked for running a bike thru the tuning link anyway: AFAIC, for what DynoJet is asking for the PCIII, it should come with a certificate for a gratis run on a tuning-link equipped dyno. But then I'm the sort of cheapskate who would buy the individual carb jets instead of spending 5x as much for the "kit" back when Bernoulli did all the fuel metering... 

 

So far, for the money the My15M seems like the only worthwhile investment, as it is the only solution that is more-or-less "stand alone" & doesn't require some sort of additional outlay to someone with a dyno anytime you want to make a novel change to your engine mods. Fortunately for me, I'm the sort of cheapskate who can't afford to wander far off the "as equipped" mark, so it's all rather moot for me...

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talk about taking it in the ass, look at what this guy is charging to set up PCIII's. Probably because he is not using a tuning link....

 

http://www.moto-lab.com/dyno_services/tuning_PC500_html/

 

and to set up a tuneboy

http://www.moto-lab.com/dyno_services/tuning_Tri_html/

 

imagine shelling out $1,800 to tune your EFI. No freakin' way! I paid $150 to set up my PCIII.......

[Guest Jeff in Ohio]

oh yeah, count me in as to not being down ith this whole altitude thing. I know of a guy who runs a Cali with bumped compression, big cam and Mike Rich'd heads. He live in the upper atmosphere of Arizona (Up on the mountain near Flagstaff I believe). Runs a PCIII, and when he drops the 10,000 ft off the mountain to go to LA or Sandy Ego, he notices NO performance change. I believe he got his bike tuned somewhere at a lower elevation too, so by the logic here, it should run like a big fat rich pig when he is at home up on the mountain. Well, according to him, it runs great everywhere. I'd say the 15M is doing it's job pretty good........

[todd haven]

http://www.moto-lab.com/dyno_services/tuning_PC500_html/

 

and to set up a tuneboy

http://www.moto-lab.com/dyno_services/tuning_Tri_html/

 

imagine shelling out $1,800 to tune your EFI. No freakin' way!  I paid $150 to set up my PCIII.......

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Hey, Jeff,

Don't forget your coupon, or you won't get this "special" pricing.

 

"Hello, I'd like the sucker special,please." Here's my coupon.

 

I've got no problem with people making a profit.

I'm willing to give it a try myself,

but Jesus, Mary, and Joseph! $2800 to tune a tueboy? Yowzza!

[Guest Jeff in Ohio]

Hey, Jeff,

Don't forget your coupon, or you won't get this "special" pricing.

 

"Hello, I'd like the sucker special,please." Here's my coupon.

 

I've got no problem with people making a profit.

I'm willing to give it a try myself,

but Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!  $2800 to tune a tueboy?  Yowzza!

40236[/snapback]

 

 

that thing had better also 'tune' my 'boy' for that kind of money

[Guest Jeff in Ohio]

go here for the great tuneboy vs. pciii debate that raged on the aprilia forum

 

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=tuneboy

 

other jabs from Clarkie are here:

 

 

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthr...oy&pagenumber=2

 

 

entertaining reading

[Cliff]

If Cliff's My15M ECU would allow Tuning Link mapping input (and I see this one brewing at the local pub already)... you'd be getting somewhere.

If you have the details I'm sure I could accomodate.

 

I did the last complete dyno run in under 2 hours at AU$110 an hour. That was the first time I'd done it in closed loop mode so there was a bit of farting around and I'd just changed map formats so it was out by more than 10%. I reckon I could do it in under an hour nowadays with the optimiser.

 

I tell the dyno operator to hold the revs and I then open the throttle to the desired spot, wait about 10 seconds, then move to the next throttle setting etc. The updates are automatically applied. Then move onto the next RPM.

 

I prefer doing it on a quiet road nowadays, at least the main data points. Not to keen on standing next to a screaming motor on a dyno.

And my exhaust goes all sorts of colours.