tank slap v11 sport

[dlaing]

Pretty strange.

It would drive me nuts if I did not know what caused an accident.

My last accident, I had been riding from about 7AM till about 1-3PM, yes I stopped for breaks, but I still had not eaten lunch and was getting hungry.

I was setting up very early for a turn, planning on taking it fairly quickly, noticining the guard rail up ahead, I figured I should take it more moderately, so I grabbed a little front brake, still 100 feet from the turn, I was not panicing, but I grabbed more front brake than I should have. The front wheel locked, I went down and broke ribs and shoulder.

I think what caused it was the bad judgement of braking while not having my weight centered, (but I had done this a thousand times) but more importantly the fatigue in my wrist, made me lose control of smooth easy braking. Kind of like when you jump into a car with power brakes.

I suppose it is possible that your brake hand had a spasm, or that following the vertigo theory, you momentarily blacked out.

You probably have no history of spasms, fainting, epillepsy or anything similar, but as we get older, sh^te happens.

You remember the car you were about to stay clear of, and you remember going down, so it sure seems like you were conscious.

Any chance the sub-conscious concern of someone opening the car door, caused your hand to close on the brake?

Sorry to ask the question if it offends you, I am certainly NOT a doctor, and I am not trying to call you a spaz to save the impecible Guzzi name

Just try to help a brother get to the truth ..maybe you were immitating this guy

[tomsp]

my 2 cents too-- from the description, it really didn't sound like a tank slapper- the oscillations begin small and work up big- the harder you try and grab/hold onto the clip-ons, the worse everything gets. Really still sounds like when you crossed the median there was slippery junk there somewhere, and instantly you were down-- no time to think about anything! whamo. (done that too)

 

None-the-less, really sorry it happened

[jrt]

Well, it seems that there are lot's of theories; the first thing to do is inspect the bike. Check the bearings, the rotors, the tire surface- anything you can think of.

I was going to suggest that if you hit your head going down, you could forget the crash and lose a few minutes due to a concussion. It sounds like you didn't hit your head, but you might still have experienced enough g-force to suspend your memory a bit.

Good luck finding out the root cause, and we're glad you can still walk.

Jason

[Lex]

 

The best known shop in the US: Race Tech

 

I disagree... and I'll leave it at that.

 

 

 

ToddGuzziTech.com

39891[/snapback]

 

Todd,

 

I'd like to point out I didn't say best, I said best known. The LA magazines (yes, including your friends at CW) constantly stroke Race Tech, I don't know why.

 

As for the rest of your post, do you sell springs and such through Guzzi Tech? If so I'd change my first suggestion after a local Guzzi dealer (if you are lucky enough to have one) to a Guzzi specialist like Guzzi Tech.

 

Lex

 

PS. Sorry to be so slow to respond, the bad weather has keep my search and recovery team very busy for the last few days.

[guido]

Now I'm feeling much better, healing fast. thanks for all good wishes.

As for the bike. Air pressure 2.4 front, 2.5 back. Suspension checked front and back, OK. Steering damper 3 clicks. All wheel bearings OK. Engine: flushed out sand from one cover and drain back, apart from sand, engine oil clean. Replaced sparkplug, runs perfect. Gearbox OK.

The only thing we have found that's not OK, is the eyebolt for the steering damper.

The blot has broken off, right at the base of the thread. There is evidence of fatigue, one third of the break being greyish matt in colour, the rest silvery and knobbly(?).

The best take on the situation is that the steering damper has come off at the begining of the bumpy road, and that the steeing became unstable.

The reason for the fatigue, could possibly be the adjustment of the damper clamp. Which might have made it possible to lock on the steering damper instead of the steering lock tabs on the clamp. This is not yet clear, as my bike has got broken tabs, it will have to be checked on a new bike.

This could explain the scenario seen, and there is no damage to the steering damper, it has certainly not made the violent swings the steering has done, as there are no marks either end, only a scratch where the damper has fallen on the oil cooler.

My advice to anyone with this steering set-up. is to check the eyebolt, right where the tread starts, before the contra nut, on the lower clamp. Also check that the steering is stopped by the stops, not the clamp. This is only applicable on parking, of course, but it could bend the bolt, only for it to snap later.

 

As for my fits and old age but thanks for the good wishes

[Enzo]

The first thing I want to know when I hear of ANY crashes or unusual behavior on a Lemans is HOW MUCH DO YOU WEIGH? I am of the opinion that the V11 in its STOCK form is not completely safe for anyone over 170 pounds. I weigh 170 and my settings are maxed out, but it handles just right for me under thrashing conditions. I would go to different shocks or springs if I weighed another pound.

[Guest Brian Robson]

I would go to different shocks or springs if I weighed another pound.

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You started off making sense (at least the first twenty words), and then you add that claptrap at the end.

Presumably like a jockey you hit the scales religiously before each ride?

Then if you gain or lose weight, off you go to buy new suspension?

The local bike stores must love you.

So what appears to have been a unique accident with a myriad of causitive reasons, was in fact rider error. I'm sure he feels better now.

[pete roper]

While it's impossible to say why this occured I don't think anyone has noted that when the V11 was launched one of the things that Guzzi tried to do was quicken up the steering, (at the expense of stability, there's always a trade off.) as for years Journo's had been pissing and moaning about how slow the steering was on the Tonti's.

 

So The early V11's had a shorter frame and wheelbase and much more *modern* steering geometry. What happened? Journo's pissed and moaned that it was flighty and not nearly as stable as the old Tonti framed bikes or even the Sporti .

 

After, I think but youse blokes would know better than me, 2001 the frame was lengthened a bit, I dunno if the steering geometry was changed though. This was done to combat this percieved flightiness!

 

I've ridden comparatively few V11's but the first one I rode was a very early model 98-99???? The demo that was sent to Oz. Now this had been thrashed mercilessly by Journo's so it wasn't in the best of nick and I didn't have time to play with the suspension either front or back but I gave it a fairly good pounding over some local goat tracks and loved the fact that it was almost skittish at times but it never got out of hand. Given that I know very little about this bike really I'd suggest that if you do have problems altering the weight distribution by fitting adjustable bars and experimenting AND using a decent steering damper would seem like the way to go but as I say there are plenty more more knowledgeable people out there than me on this topic. Personally, when they get cheap enough, I'll probably look for a V11 and I think I'd like an early one although the LeMans is a lovely bike too.

 

Pete

[Steve G.]

A V11 unsafe for anyone over 170ib? Man, what are you smokin' dude?

Lets compare not just a V11 and a Lemans. Try another machine. There are bikes out there that will change lanes if you cough hard. There are bikes out there that are so sensitive, so reactive to input, that countersteering the bike up from an aggressive lean angle turn will flick the front end up in the air.

The "personality" that a V11 exhibits while riding agressively, and especially at speed, is a trait that is not uncommon at all. As all bikes have unique traits, you learn what works best for that particular machine. With this machine you really should learn to use forcefull, but most importantly smooth inputs, important for all bikes, but needed for this geometry.

Ciao, Steve G.

[edge]

Guido,

 

Reference the stearing damper rod-end attaching point, mine sheared of as you described during a fall I had (collision induced). The Rod-end sheared off at the jam nut with no apparent damage to the bitburo damper. I also had damage to one of the stearing stops on the lower triple tree and to the assosiated clip on. I concluded the clipon contact with the asphalt rotated the stearing head at a rate that exceed the strenth of the damper rod-end or and more probable, the bending/knotching of the stearing stop due to excessive travel exceed the travel of the damper (as adjusted) resulting in the same rod-end failure. Either way, same result. I also looked at the break closly for fatigue but due to size of the bolt and the clean shear, I discounted fatigue and associated it with impact. During my bike recovery, I also learned an unattached damper flopping around in your fairing area (lemans) or near the fork tube/trippletree will foul your stearing travel due to interference.

 

I replaced my lower tripple tree (big PIA) due to stop damage (~350.00US) and replaced the rod-end bearing with a McMaster SS replacemend (18.00US) and of course the clipons too with aftermarket bars... During the damper replacment, I spent a lot of time ensuring I had full travel on the tripletree stops vs. damper rod end binding.

 

B/L You'll probably never conclusively know what set up the stearing head oscilation in your case but would say it probably started with the road iregularities and low dampining (either mechanical or human). As you found out when it happens, it's quick, violent and friggin scarry ! Back in the day, I had a slap experience on a cafe'd out 1977 Yamahamer XD-500 with low dunstall bars, no damper (damper what??), at 70mph plus. I am not sure why I am still here today but like you, I now have a life long respect for it. I always ride with light (non-binding) stearing dampning (free insurance) and a good two handed grip.

 

be safe,

[Tim]

I've been following this thread with interest as I own a 2000 V11S with 17,00 miles on the clock. I've owned the bike just under a year and had a similar experience caused by a front wheel bearing siezing at 80mph+ on a motorway. This caused the bars to jolt violently and I'm sure I would have decked it if I hadn't dialled the steering damper in a few notches before setting out.

 

I know this wasn't the reason this bike went down the road but it seemed relevant.

 

moral of this story - use the steering damper and check the wheel bearings (some people recommend wheel bearing changes at tyre changes - sounds a bit extreme to me though)

 

Tim

[Guest Brian Robson]

Tim, I don't think its extreme at all, in that the bearings are 10.00 each, and if I'd had an incident like yours,the replacement underwear would have been double that!

[dlaing]

I kind of think old bearings, like old underware, are safer.

Here is why:

New underware, unless you prewash it, is often coated with chemicals.

People who bought underware and use it in a disposable fashion, may get a rash

Likewise an old bearing is broken in and proven.

It probably just needs lube and care.

But it should be inspected and like underware when you are about to go on a hot date, replaced if even slightly sub-standard.

[guido]

I kind of think old bearings, like old underware, are safer.

Here is why:

New underware, unless you prewash it, is often coated with chemicals.

People who bought underware and use it in a disposable fashion, may get a rash

Likewise an old bearing is broken in and proven.

It probably just needs lube and care.

But it should be inspected and like underware when you are about to go on a hot date, replaced if even slightly sub-standard.

40574[/snapback]

just to keep you posted regarding my bike.

I have now fully recovered, so the focus has turned towards the bike. The dealer got it in 2 weeks ago, and checked a few things, mainly at the front. He discovered nothing unusual. I had a meeting set up with them today, and also went and had a look at the bike. the front wheel was off, and I went and turned the bush, protruding on the one side. It was difficult to turn by hand, and gave a little "clonk" from time to time. We put it on a tyre balancer, and once you roll the wheel, there is a noticable coarseness or rumble. There is certainly something wrong with the bearing, they are SKF, so I have suggested to send the bearings to SKF and let them tell us, if, at any time, there could have been significant resistance from the bearing, which could perhaps explain the "buzz" I felt just before the crash.

I had suggested that they sent the bike to the factory, but that seems not to be an option, and they have suggested that they buy back this bike, and I pay in the difference on a new model.

I am reluctant to let the bike go, provided I can find a reason for the crash. If I can't, then it must go, however.

Any advice, suggestions or experience? Now we have a fatigued steering damper bolt, a defective front wheel bearing and a gearbox on recall!

I am still smiling!

As regards the front fork setting, then the top of the fork was exactly in line with the top of the yoke. Somebody suggested this could also be of significance.

[Paul Minnaert]

guido,

 

V11 wheelbearings don't have problems, it's the way production tolerances from the factory in regard the the spacer between them and the wheel hub machining work out. In some cases the center bearing ring has a mounting axcial pressure, that's not what it's made for and then it will fail. Happend front and rear.

 

The first v11 geometry shouldn't be a problem, as my daytona is much more extreme, with an inch less wheelbase, and an degree steeper steeringhead. it's running without any instablitys