Freedom of speech

[jrt]

Here's yet another rehashing of what I think is being said many times above this.

In any or all situations, idealized free speech may not have limits, but speech does. For example, you cannot shout 'fire' in a theater but you can shout 'this movie sucks'.

I'm in favor of free speech, even if I disagree with it or find it objectionable. But the fact of the matter is this is not a forum on free speech. It's a forum on the Moto Guzzi LeMans motorcycle.

This forum is made up of a very diverse group of folks and has a very diverse, sometimes headstrong and not necessarily aligned, set of personal biases. It's our own mini-United Nations. If we're to have common discourse, we have to play by some rules that can be generally agreed upon. Since this is a purpose-driven forum, it seems reasonable to follow the general guideline that we talk about the Moto Guzzi LeMans bikes, more or less. That we adhere to this guideline is a credit to us all. And we do for the most part.

I think it is entirely appropriate to have moderators, not censors, to help the flow of information and keep discourse within certain boundary conditions (i.e. not letting it devolve into hatred-fueled rants). I cannot imagine how slander, libel or any number of internet psychotic behaviors could have any significant positive contribution. I don't think anyone here is implying that TR is a moron, idiot or bigot. To me, he comes across as bright, but just a little off center, forthright, and I find that endearing. I agree with Todd H here, I appreciate his contributions.

More significantly, every time I visit this website and this forum, I think I'm in Jaap's house. It's his domain name, he maintains the site, etc. This isn't a public-owned utility. I think it's every one of us, our responsibility to respect that, whether we agree with it or not. We should play by his rules. If we shout 'this movie sucks' in Jaap's theater, he has every right to tell us to sit down and be quiet or leave. More practically, I don't see Jaap as enforcing much- he's a nice host. In fact, he's shown to be very adaptable in improving this site, incorporating new areas for posting off-topic materials, and partitioning the topical material into logical groups.

just my opinion.

Jason

[Motomonster]

Too bad. I had a feeling you used to be good friends at one point.

39969[/snapback]

 

Such is life. We did get along, but as we spent more time together, his anti-Semitic rants became more pronounced and I got sick of it. I tried to talk with him about it in a reasonable manner, but no luck. I don't want to go into the guy's personal business, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

That being said, I definitely appreciate V11 Forum and Wildguzzi, which both have good moderators and keep things civil. Don't get me wrong. I like a good debate as much as anyone, but some people just don't seem capable of it.

 

Wo-wo-wo-wo-wo...

 

Motomonster, Are you cheating us?

 

Antonio, I am not sure what you mean by this, but I'm guessing you're asking if I'm making a joke. No, I'm afraid I'm not.

 

Cheers.

[pete roper]

I think most relevant points have already been made. I too see some form of

moderation is quite reasonable otherwise things quickly spiral way out of control and forums tend to degenerate into hostile groups of warring tribes and it's all very unedifying. It's perfectly possible for people who have differing opinions and beliefs to also have things in common and even, heaven forbid, enjoy each others company! I'd imagine that I and Bill Hagan are about as different as you can get from a 'Political' standpoint, that doesn't mean I can't respect the man and his beliefs, it's just theat he's wrong and I'm right

 

You'll usually find that if you actually look beneath the surface it's possible to find large areas of common interest with the most extraordinary and diverse selections of people but this is primarily a Guzzi forum and consequently if things get too far from the point it's I think reasonable for somebody to slap us back into line.

 

I've not visited Enzo's site, mainly because I don't seem to be able to access it, but if it is mainly a forum for name calling, vitriol and bile I can see little point in visiting, I can get that down the pub on any Friday night I choose!

 

Both the WG site, (which is populated mainly by older, dyed in the wool, republican voting types.) and this one I enjoy greatly and have *met* some great people through although I can generally contribute less here as my knowledge of the V11 models is slim. Both of them seem to be successfully and unobtrusively moderated, evidently this works for me. Whether it works for others???? well if they don't like it the web is a big place, there'll be somewhereelse they can go.

 

As for worries about racism and homophobia? I haven't seen or heard anyone talking about nigger or poofter bashing, or encouraging it. I find Tex's posts hillarious, the man is obviously far too intelligent to allow himself to be posted into somebody elses tiny box. It's very easy to make glib assumptions about people based on a few lines taken out of context from a message on a bulletin board, yes, over a period of time you can begin to get an idea of what people are like and you can probably pick the one's you'd like to meet and those you'd like to avoid, but remember, it *is* only a bulletin board, not one of the great houses of debate where the issues of the world are discussed.

 

Enough ranting from me I want to talk

 

Pete

[RacerX]

--Very Rare Rant mode on--

 

My $.02... Is there irony in the fact that most of the people who have posted on this topic who "make sense", are those that have spent alot of time on two wheels and that this love/passion is the common bond(?). I think everyone would agree so.

 

I've spent now debate-ably all of my life on two wheels (Gen-X'er I am)... I've lived, loved (even on, but never to silly), breathed, raced, wrenched, crashed, pissed-on and off with the best of'em. I recently established the basis over the last decade that the most memorable situations/people/events that stick favorably and happily in my mind, were situations involving two wheels. That said... we all need a campfire to sit around and voice thoughts opinions. Best remembered that two wheels is what brings all of us together. Two wheels have taken me to places I'd otherwise never be able to see, and people that I'd never have met. I've got to meet some of the most well known two-wheelers in our history so far, starting "under the wing of" and dirt-tracking in the company of (though not with) Gary Nixon, very early in my life (and on, and on...). Other times in my life that weren't involving two wheels are vague, faded imprints.

 

All that said, some reading this/members here are on my MGNOC-SW ("where the inmates have taken over", so quoted) list hosted at Topica. This list was founded back in Sept. of 2000... and as such, I commited to being a non-moderated list... and it still sits as such. I don't have the time or interest to moderate there.

Primarily the list chatter of late is all politics and religion, and while I don't contribute, nor read it most of the time, it idles merrily on. The few "confrontations" (usually happens when someone new who doesn't actually know, or been face to face with most listers... which almost everyone there has) stem from new "face-less" voices. All-in-all, it's been a very entertaining list over the years, which all folks there realize that two (Guzzi) wheels brought them there. I still try to sneak a post in about Motorcycles once and awhile, it usually it gets mowed over with no replies... oh well. Atleast everyone's having fun. I'm happy to have been able to gather such a diverse group. Oh, did I mention the vast majority of listers were ones thrown off of other "lists" (primarily/originally harshly-by-the-reigns MGCL), and by coincidence, most live in the S/SW U.S. We even managed to calm even one of the most "colorful" listers from Atlanta, even got him to ride to SoCal. He's very thankful for our group therapy to this day, he'll still admit.

 

I've learned that I am drawn to/entertained by lists/boards that maintain the reason I came in the first place. If I can have sh*ts and giggles along the way... all the better. I've had a very fun ride so far... and look forward to many, many more.

 

Oh well, enough said.

 

Happy 2005!

 

--Rant mode off--

 

Two wheeler for life,

ToddGuzziTech.com

[antonio carroccio]

I'm guessing you're asking if I'm making a joke. No, I'm afraid I'm not.

 

Enzo....tsj, tsj, tsj...

[Orson]

The way I see it, you should behave on the internet as you would in real life. I wouldn't want to go to a restaurant and end up sitting next to a buncha people yelling at each other, calling each other names, using abusive language, arguing about politics and in general, being LOUD.

 

I think Jaap has just the right touch

 

I like the clubby atmosphere here of a buncha italophile Guzzi nuts being kinda nutty

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

The way I see it, you should behave on the internet as you would in real life. I wouldn't want to go to a restaurant and end up sitting next to a buncha people yelling at each other, calling each other names, using abusive language, arguing about politics and in general, being LOUD.

40179[/snapback]

I can't wait to see Tex in a restaurant now!!

[antonio carroccio]

I can't wait to see Tex in a restaurant now!!

I hope for you he will appear with the clothes on…

[Desdinova]

Interesting thread.

I also run or assist in running several forums and so I'll chime in from that angle.

 

The thought that any forum entitles anyone to "free speech" is just silly. When you signup to a forum, you usually accept a set of rules or agree to "terms of service." That is what rules the "community." I use the word community very much on purpose. Just as decency is measured in the real world by community, so it is on the internet where a communiity is decided by participants.

 

As far as decency goes, the owner of a website has a serious responsibility. They must insure they are not held legally liable for what someone posts or what information is collected from people based on COPPA and other Privacy Act regulations found at the FTC.

 

Most smaller websites don't bother too much with the legal issues but they should. Here are some scenarios to think about.

 

1. Someone does a search and is linked to a forum page with porn links or obscenity and they work at a company with zero tolerance. I doubt anything comes of it, but having your boss visit your cube because the IT guy reported you viewing "questionable" material is not a good way to start your day.

 

2. Someone takes a tip to do some bike mod and breaks their bike. Time to sue the owner of the website of course.

 

3. A site that has mild porn links, lots of lewd language and no blocks or at least warnings to block those 13 and under. Website gets reported to FTC and shut down.

 

I'm a bit AR so when I go to a site like "V11Lemans" I'm there to find info on the V11, and that's it. If I want to talk politics, there are sites for that. If I want jokes, there are sites for that. If I want to talk guitars there are sites for that.

 

FWIW.. people who need to swear and/or cuss to get their point across either are not very imaginative, or just have such little confidence in their opinion that they have to dress it up or it won't sell. I swear in speech as much as the next guy (or gal) but to type it just seems idiotic. Swearing or "cussing" are elements of oral communication, not written communication, although you can't tell from some message boards.

 

Desdinova

[Admin Jaap]

What does "I'm a bit AR" mean?

[Bill Hagan]

What does "I'm a bit AR" mean?

40303[/snapback]

 

Anal Retentive.

 

See, e.g., http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AnalRetentive

 

BTW, I think the answer on the hyphen question is "yes, " if AR is used as a phrasal adjective.

[Admin Jaap]

Thanks!

 

Tonight I'm going to polish al stainless boltheads on my bike until I can see myself in them. Al R., do you know what polish I should use?

[Baldini]

...Swearing or "cussing" are elements of oral communication, not written communication...

 

BOLLOCKS!

 

KB

[jrt]

Damn, if you ain't eloquent.

[badmotogoozer]

I f@@king love you guys!

 

Except Belfast.... as a good Canadian, I can't possibly trust a bloke who doesn't cheer for the local hockey team. Go Giants Go!!

 

Just kidding Belfast - I'd hoist a Guiness with ya any day! (But preferably game day)

 

Rj (Anal Expelsive)