Guest ratchethack Posted January 19, 2005 Posted January 19, 2005 RE: in/ex respectively? Yep. RE: Back to the Norton days? Well, I think you're quite right to imply that there are compelling similarities. You've got a vaguely similar great throbbing air-cooled twin torque-monster of a lump operated by pushrods. The good news is that you don't have a perpetual puddle of oil underneath, or leaky Amal concentrics that shake the slides loose in their bores every couple thousand miles. Oh - and a lot more power, halfway decent suspension, superb brakes, electrics that actually function for the most part, and a vastly superior chassis with mostly modern components and shaft drive with a fabulous close-ratio 6-speed box that any Norton rider would die for. Other than that, yeah - it's back to 30 years ago, when Norton was even then about 20 years behind the times...
BrianG Posted January 22, 2005 Author Posted January 22, 2005 Easy now...... I'd hate to see you make the Norton cry!
Miles Long Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 Hey Ratchethack, what a load of crap.... my 35 year old Norton is right up there with my brand new Guzzi V11 sport in all areas....just as quick in the tight stuff, not that much slower overall,no oil underneath,great & predictable handling, superior than the wallowing head shaking bounce all over the road Guzzi,brakes just fine but any deficiecies overcome by the the handling, electrics work, carbs are fine & dead easy to adjust, no need for a 6 speed box that the "torquey" wog bike has to have, better looking, better sounding...certainly no more tappet noise ...and...again ....35 years old & skinny tyres. I could go on...any takers? Miles Long bottle of red involved here.
Miles Long Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 Oh. I forgot to mention that there's not enough O's in smooooooth when it comes to a Commando compared to a MG ...& seat removal is self explanatory. Miles
Martin Barrett Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 wog Shouldn't that be wop if we're using derogatory nationalistic (racist) terminology? Unless the user is an Australian.
Guest ratchethack Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 I can only echo the wisdom of Antonio, which most certainly applies here: "Eeeeeeuuuuhmmmmmm?"
Steve G. Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 Well, first off, I can certainly understand if Jaap sends this thread over to the non-technical section. I think Miles needs to take a reality pill. Maybe two. I've owned Commandos for years, and still do. I will say that Ratchethack is close to reality, except for the electrics thing. I still think that to keep costs down Moto Guzzi continues to use electrical components that ultimately make it the weak link on the machine. As a result, I call the electrics on these two machines equal. As for the rest of Miles conclusions, well lets go through them. The brakes are a no brainer, the Brembo equipement is simply the best, no question. The engines on these machines both have character in spades, and while low and midrange are surprisingly close, once the cam shows it's influence on the Guzzi, about 4800rpm on an unfettled example, it again is far superior in output, in fact close to double if you compare actual dyno tests of stock untouched models. The facts again are clear, that the Norton twin's design origins are from the fourties, and the Moto Guzzi twin's are from the sixties. Now Miles, don't bring up the magazine tested Combat models, as everyone in the world know that these were factory ringers. And we won't even touch the debacle of road going Combats that often blew their engines before their owners made their first payment. Handling wise, both machines have their own achilles heal. The Norton's isolastic system, while granted offers a virtually vibration free ride compared to the V11 based machines, is, lets face it, a hinge in the middle. Oh, you can ride around it, get used to it by ignoring the tail waggle, or tighten up the isloastic system to reduce frame flex, thereby increasing vibration. The Moto Guzzi V11's handling does suffer from two main things, one that it is shaft drive, and the inherent weight bias to the rear does show itself once you ride a machine of 'proper' weight bias. The other problem is the frame on these bikes, which does get 'willowy' as two magazines have noted in tests, as speeds get higher. As for the gearbox, I don't think the Guzzi needs a 6 speed, but this is almost expected by the buying public these days, so you certainly can't call this a negative thing. Oil leaks, who cares, even though most Norton's actuall sweat oil out from porous castings. The carbs are easy to deal with that's true, but they are essentially toast after 10,000-15000 miles, luckily they are cheap and easy to get. Miles, when you are asking about any takers, are you actually talking about.................a race? Me on my V11 against you on a Norton Commando? Just say where and when and I'll do my darndest to set it up. And I'll only use the first 4 gears. And if your Norton is non stock in race trim, please allow me to use the 5th gear. Just in case you are wondering, I like a California Merlot. Ciao, Steve G.
GuzziHutch Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 Don't get me wrong, I have a GREAT PASSION for the Commando and owned them for many years. My best friend still has a very fine example so lots of experience and admiration BUT facts are my '84 Lemans III will smoke a Commando! So what is this debate about the V11 and the Norton? Come on now! A little reality please! Joe
Baldini Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 Dunno about Trolls but I think it's daft the way people who never ridden them imagine anything made before say 1990 is a slow ol piece of s**t. Give me a tight twisty road or track, a bunch of big rubber multicoloured sport bike riders & me Tonti & I bet I wouldn't be last in the pub. I've always fancied an 850 motor in a featherbed frame, decent suspension & brakes, but still on skinny tyres - If you could survive the vibration I reckon that'd be a contender! Heh, Heh - You ride a what????! - - KB
Steve G. Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 Well now, the Featherbed. This is an entirely different situation. This frame design was a revelation in motorcycle road handling. Should you find yourself running with someone on a pre-Commando Norton, again in tight stuff, don't bet the farm you can even keep up with him, should he be of the same calibre rider as yourself. On a straight or long sweeper stretch of course, you will quickly despatch him. And if the poor lad is on a late model of say 750cc status, as in the Atlas, don't worry he won't last long. He'll have to pull over soon to have a hand transplant because the vibration will have liquified his fingers. Baldini makes a point I agree with. I've ridden Tonti framed machines many times, most notably my buddies first year Lemans, and can attest the handling competence to be higher than the spine frame. It is amazing the lack of understanding out there regarding any number of 'primarily' Italian thoroughbred machines with peerless road handling. The pre 1980 900SS Ducati's I personally put at the apex of this esteemed group of machines. Ciao, Steve G.
Baldini Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 ...I've ridden Tonti framed machines many times, most notably my buddies first year Lemans, and can attest the handling competence to be higher than the spine frame.... When I was looking to buy a new bike I looked at the V11's & I thought the frames didn't look so well thought out. "I'm worried these new ones won't handle as well as mine..." - salesboy looked at my 77 Tonti thru the window & back at me ... just pity the ol sod his eyes said - "bikes have changed a lot since then".... I always thought the feel of a Featherbed very similar to the Tonti - both rock solid, just the shaft making the Tonti a bit more of an aquired art. Keep those skinnies rollin....! KB
Miles Long Posted January 23, 2005 Posted January 23, 2005 And if the poor lad is on a late model of say 750cc status, as in the Atlas, don't worry he won't last long. He'll have to pull over soon to have a hand transplant because the vibration will have liquified his fingers. He'll also have to stop to tighten up the zorst nuts. Miles
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