Upgrade front or rear suspension?

[al_roethlisberger]

....inspired from the "03 Rosso" suspension thread in "Buy and sell":

 

03 Corsa Rosso Suspension Thread

 

In regard to upgrading the suspension... here's a question for those that have done so, or are knowledgeable about such things:

 

So, obviously it would super-nifty to be able to spend lots of dough to upgrade the front and rear to Ohlin's, Penske, etc.... and make for the best suspension money can buy. But of course the reality is that most of us have very limited budget (...if you want to call it that, I generally just spend till I run out ) so we can't necessarily spend that much to fix something that "ain't broke"

 

So, if you had to choose, based on experience with our OEM Marz front suspension, and the rear Sachs shock... which would you think gives the most noticeable "bang for the buck" to replace?

 

I've heard some great things about just upgrading the rear being "night-and-day," and haven't really heard anything in regard to the front... although I'm sure it could be "better"... but how much? Is our front suspension actually pretty good in comparison? ...or not?

 

I've only got a few real complaints in regard to the suspension, although I know that my riding skills and style in no way push it to it's limits. That only complaint being I get a bit more highway rhythmically jouncing from expansion joints than on past bikes...

 

Anyway, obviously subjective to some degree, but a discussion I think would be interesting. Which would you focus upon, front or rear?

 

al

[taminatorv]

I'm still adjusting the stock suspension of my V11S. Right now, I'm getting a decent setup compromising a decent freeway ride with good stability in the corners. But, it does bother me that it doesn't come close to the compliance and almost spot on tuning of my VFR800's stock Showa suspension. My VFR is rock steady in corners, absorbs bumps very well, and has an excellent freeway ride.

 

I've read in Cycle World that the Ohlins shock is way too stiff even on it's softest settings. If I find I can't live with the stock suspension, I'll give Lindeman Engineering a call first (http://www.le-suspension.com/index.html#) to see what they can do. I hear nothing but good results from their work with forks and shocks.

[al_roethlisberger]

Agreed.... I don't want "harsher" and don't ride the track....

 

I get pretty jarred on our local freeways' expansion joints, much more than my FJ-1200, and I have the same opinion in regard to my friend's VFR comparing it to our bikes.

 

I'd like to get mine comparably "dialed-in," hence the start of this thread, but I don't want to spend money for no good reason just for bragging rights.

 

As an aside, Ken at Evoluzione says the Penske rear makes a phenomenal difference. But I don't know if it addresses our specific issues. I didn't ask. It's possible he meant it's better for go-fast applications, I dunno...

 

BTW, your garage sounds(ed) very similar to mine:

 

- 02 V11 LeMans

- 98 VFR (...not mine, but stored for a friend)

- ...used to have a '94 Miata M-Edition with requisite goodies. I was very active on the Miata mailing-list, and have an old "how to" page on www.miata.net somewhere

 

...and my GF is in Fremont, I am in San Jose

 

al

[taminatorv]

Now here's something I thought was interesting. A couple of weeks ago, I turned up the shock spring preload to reduce the sag I was experiencing. I wanted to keep more weight on the front wheel to get more stability. The result was a more stable handling V11S that tracks better without that nervous feeling (you probably don't have this problem with your Lemans). The interesting thing was that my ride felt noticably more compliant with the exact same compression and rebound damping settings. My kidneys feel happier after a bumpy road The only thing I could think of is that preloading the spring helps it retain more travel and thus compliance instead of losing it to sag. I'm sure I was sagging close to 2 inches before I adjusted the spring, leaving about 2.7 inches or so of travel from it's total of 4.7 inches. Now, the suspension sags about .5 inches when I sit on it leaving 4.2 inches of travel. Does this make sense or am I just crazy?

 

Hopefully, Carl has a ride soon and we can all meet each other.

[al_roethlisberger]

I haven't measured my rear sag recently, but did so at the shop a few months back, and it was near the recommended spec for my size/weight. So I dunno

 

BTW, the highway jounce isn't absolutely terrible, but it's definitely noticeable, and I'd love to reduce it.

 

al

[evoluzione]

al,

 

to answer your original question the rear needs more help than the front. but, for not much money you can easily improve the front as well.

 

we just finished "playing" with the front suspension on our le mans today and it responded very well. we basically played with the spring weights, valving & fluid and found the following:

 

the springs are way soft - for my weight (220 lbs in gear) i needed a 1.0 kg/mm spring to get the desired 35 mm of dynamic sag (i had 50 mm of sag with the stock spring). cost: $100 per set.

 

the valving is not too bad but needs minor tuning to make the fork more responsive (compliant). cost:

 

change the fluid! use a good synthetic 5wt (400cc per leg) such as race tech us-1. cost: $25

 

so for ~$150 plus labor (if you don't do it yourself) you can have a worthwhile improvement in the front end ride and handling.

 

when the modified forks are combined with the penske rear you end up with a suspension that rivals most ducatis & aprilias yet is supple enough for longer distance cruising.

 

hope this helps.

 

 

regards,

 

ken zeller

evoluzione cyclesports

[dlaing]

How much do you think the asymetric damping of the forks effects handling?

If the axle was bigger like on the 2003 LeMans, it would be less of an issue, I suppose...

Anyway, when I had my forks off, I was suprised to find that the damping was sooooo asymetrical. I guess you could balance them better through revalving, if you knew what your final compression and rebound settings were going to be.

Also, I would like to second Taminatorv's comments about dialing in the rear makes it more compliant.

I say, dial what you have in. If you still want better, a rear shock is cheaper than a front fork, and if you ever crash, you are more likely to ruin the forks than the rear shock, so invest first in the rear first, even though I think there is more room for improvement in the front.

[profWacko]

Please keep in mind that the Ohlins shock that Cycle World complained about that comes on a Scura could not possibly be the same as the aftermarket one I got from Mr' Ed's Moto. As soon as I installed it, the difference in ride quality was instantly apparent, being far more compliant and supple.

 

I cannot wait to try Ken's fork upgrades. I will post the results when I get it done.

 

Ride well. Ride safe.

-Jack Price

Glendale, CA

02 V11 Le Mans

01 KTM Duke II

[Lex]

I’ve done a fair amount of work with shocks and forks over the last 30 years. In my opinion an important point that Tam made is being missed. A good suspension shop can vastly improve your existing shock. As an example I had the Showa shock on my K1200 re-sprung and valved by Lindaman Engineering, the difference is amazing. It will never be as good as a well set-up Ohlins (or Fox or WP) but it rides much better, never bottoms and keeps the wheel on the ground even when running hard on very bumpy roads. The spring BMW put on the shock was so far off Jim (Lindaman) actually laughed when he look at it. He put on a spring roughly 20% stiffer, softened the damping and I got a better ride and better handling. My shock cost $250 (I needed a new spring and a custom made spacer) that is about 1/3 the cost of an Ohlins. Add the ideas Ken Zeller suggested for the forks and I’d bet you could have a great ride and much better handling for around $400 (if you do the labor) that is less than the price of a mediocre rear shock.

 

A note to Al, the asymmetry in the Marzocchi fork is not an accident. Marzocchi has been building forks with compression on one side and rebound on the other for at least twenty years. I’m not enough of an expert to make absolute statements but I doubt that the relatively minor forces of damping are going to flex a USD fork enough to matter to us on the street. For the folks who like to tinker the Marzocchi design is fun, you can make compression or rebound stiffer or softer by changing the oil on that side. This is important; the adjustments on forks and shocks only affect the shock (or fork) at low speeds. When the wheel is running over sharp bumps at speed the damping is all from the washer stacks, the orifices the “clickers” adjust are overwhelmed. This means changing the viscosity of the oil will have much more effect than the adjusters.

 

Regarding Jack Price’s comment about the Ohlins used on the Scura Vs. the one he bought from Mr. Ed’s Moto. My guess (and it would be guess) is that the biggest difference between the shock Jack bought and the one on the Scura is the spring and the damping rates, not the quality of the shock. Several years ago I put an Ohlins on my R100GS. The result was about what the magazines say about the Scura, it pretty much sucked. Having used Fox shocks for years I couldn’t figure out why anybody would use a POS Ohlins. I took it to (surprise!) Jim Lindaman and had it re-valved. The change was night and day, from harsh and bouncy to smooth and very well controlled, the equal of my Fox shocks.

 

Why does the Scura come with great suspension set up so badly? Why was my first Ohlins so badly set up? Why was the shock on my K1200 so screwed up? Beats me. All I know is badly set up suspension must be common or Lindaman (and the guy at Aftershocks, the guys at Race Tech and a few hundred other folks around the US) would be out of a job. As a side note, Dave Searle’s column in MCN this month is about getting the suspension on a Ducati Monster to work properly. The funny part is how the suspension got so screwed up; the guys at Ducati “fixed” it for him.

 

Sorry this is so long, I love playing with suspension and I’m afraid I’ve rambled at bit.

 

Cheers,

 

Lex

[Guest Darth Maul]

Suspension set up is 50% science n 50% art.

 

A lot has got to do with feelings too. I used to ride a bike with bad set up for years until a friend rode it n point it out. Its embarassing...

 

A simple exercise one could do just to get the "feel" is...

set the rebound or compression (never both together) all the way to the minimum, ride it. Then all the way to the maximum n ride it again. From here i believe its easier to get a judgement of the extremes n work your way from there. Riding on the same stretch of road helps.

 

Static bike sag n rider sag is important too. without proper preload setup its very difficult to get the rebound or compression settin right.

 

it also helps to try other bikes to get comparisson feelins.

 

Generally, suspension setup is one of those that cannot be fix within a day. it took me weeks n months to get what i like. There is a lot of try n errors along the way.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Francis

VTR1000SP1

VFR800Vtec

V11 Scura

[al_roethlisberger]

So, since the name has been dropped a couple times, for those interested... I went and tracked Lindeman down and gave them a call.

 

Lindeman Engineering. USA Tel +1 408-371-6151

San Jose, CA

 

I just got off the phone with him, and he gave me a detailed explanation of what is "wrong" with the front forks as delivered from the factory, in his opinion. Feel free to give him a call yourself, but basically he said that by design the suspension valving is machined to only provide compression during the very last inch or so of travel, so in many cases the forks are setup very hard. They rebuild the valving so that is has a more normal compression "like all the rest of the world does" ... and sets up the forks appropriately for your weight, style, etc. Total work is from $400 to $500(parts & labor) depending on what is needed, and takes 10 days on average.

 

Regarding the rear, he says the stock Sachs shock is "OK", and they can rework it for about $150-250 depending on if a new spring is needed.

 

They offer a 10% discount on the rear shock work if you get the entire package done.

 

al

[profWacko]

Lex, I am fairly confident the we are both right about the differences between the OEM Ohlins on a Scura and the one I got from Mr. Ed's: The differences are very likely limited to the internal parts selection. Apparently, Guzzi has specified an extremely stiff compression damping setup, or perhaps just took whatever Ohlins gave them. Only they know for sure, and they are not likely to tell.

 

Al, I have talked to a few extremely satisfied customers of Lindeman's work. His explanation seems to agree with my observations of my fork performance. Because of the stiff setup, it is difficult to get the fork to move easily. Mine seems to have a ton of stiction such that while sitting on the bike, if I pull up on the bars to extend the front suspension, when I let go it does NOT return to its previous position. It just compresses a very small amount and sits at its new higher spot. If I push down on the bars, it compresses and then rebounds to almost the normal static height.

 

Like I said, I cannot wait to get something done about the forks, now that my shock works so great.

 

Ride well. Ride safe.

-Jack Price

02 V11 Le Mans (just passed Kelly Baker's V11) >8P

01 KTM Duke II (wanna talk about suspension compliance?)

83 V50 III (will be running soon)

[Lex]

Jack,

 

If it helps at all from what I've seen Guzzi is hardly alone in specifying too much compression damping. I guess everybody uses the same system; test riders who are ex-racers and weigh 130 pound testing on billiard table smooth race tracks. For them I'm sure the set-up is perfect. For us, ahem, slight larger and slower folks on roads "maintained" (I use quotes 'cause if I maintained my house like that I'd live in a tent by now) by the local government it is not ideal.

 

Al,

 

Thanks for talking to Jim. I've personally had him work on several shocks (but never forks) and found his estimates on correct spring and damping set-up to be close enough to perfect the I have never needed any re-work. I also recommended him to lots of people when I worked at a motorcycle shop, I never heard any complaints about his work. He doesn't undercharge for his tuning skills but compared to buying new parts I guess he is reasonable.

 

For folks who do not live in the SF Bay area, I'd suggest finding out who the local racers use. That is how I got hooked up with Jim, long ago I was a (slow-ish) road racer and I found Jim was pretty much "The Man" and everybody used him. Given that the AMF North's only track at that time was Sears Point and back then "The Point" looked like it was maintained by Cal-Trans good suspension tuning was very important. I'd be willing to bet there is a guy like Jim in any area that has a racing (road or dirt) community. Just be sure the person you talk to understand what kind of riding you do, a full race set-up would not be the best solution on the street. If you don't have one locally I guess UPS could be the solution.

 

Cheers,

 

Lex

[Janusz]

For all these who almost gave up to desperation: not all is lost yet and there is hope. My forks have very little stiction (less then 3/4 cm) and work very smooth and also respond well to damping adjustments. It was like that from the beginning and all I ever had to do is set rear sag for my weight and fine tune dampings to my liking.

 

So what I mean by all of that is that it cannot be some inherent flaw in bikes from factory. The engineering is fine and maybe indyvidual variations between particular bikes are just too big.

 

I am so glad i was lucky.

[Lex]

Well folks, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. My forks and shocks will be at LE tomorrow. Expect a report in two to three weeks.

 

Lex