does this seem idiotic?

[Guest goffredo]

  But again: I'll check with the cognoscenti and get back to you.

 

G.

50720[/snapback]

 

 

Ok, here the result of some data collection and contribution of Guzzi workers:

 

 

All single plates clutches are identical. The models mounted at first on RM, Scura and then on California are absolutely identical in any respect.

And they do fail. No matter what, sooner or later they break. Moto Guzzi recalled (or should have) recalled) all models and now they are all equipped with two plates clutch. You can actually see by yourself if the bike is equipped with single or two disc clutch by using a lamp and a screwdiver and removing the plastic cap on the carter and see how it is next to the flyweel. If it looks like it is perfecly attached to the flyweel

like:

 

| |

| |

| |

| |

 

then is a two discs.

If when you manually make the engine turn, it looks like:

 

|

|

|

|

|

 

Then is a single clutch. If that is the case, just get it changed. Otherwise it will break.

 

Cheers,

 

G.

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

And they do fail. No matter what, sooner or later they break. Moto Guzzi recalled (or should have) recalled) all models and now they are all equipped with two plates clutch.

50978[/snapback]

This is news to me. I'll have mine fail later please.

[dbdicker]

Ok, here the result of some data collection and contribution of Guzzi workers:

All single plates clutches are identical. The models mounted at first on RM, Scura and then on California are absolutely identical in any respect.

And they do fail. No matter what, sooner or later they break. Moto Guzzi recalled (or should have) recalled) all models and now they are all equipped with two plates clutch.

50978[/snapback]

 

 

Whoa, hold on there. We've done a lot of research here on the board and I've discussed this clutch issue with 2 very long-term, respected Guzzi dealers with decades of experience. All have confirmed what Al has been saying. I don't want to flame a new contributor here, but he should be a lot more sure of his information before he spreads it around. I think he's got the facts dead wrong. If he's got it right, a lot of guys have been lying to me and a lot of other guys here on the forum. I prefer to belive that only one guy's got it wrong. At least for now.

[al_roethlisberger]

I have no comment other than I've also been told by dealers, etc... that the SP clutch on the 5-speed cruiser models is different than on the 6-speed V11 Sport models.

 

Also, the failures of the SP clutches on the cruisers is described as "accelerated wear" such that they can't even be adjusted anymore, after just a few thousand miles. This is not what has been observed on the SP V11 Sport models, where the handful of failures have been "explosive", and wear per se hasn't been an issue.

 

 

I have not personally confirmed(seen it myself) any of this though, so I'm always open to new information/correction

 

 

al

[Guest goffredo]

Whoa, hold on there.  We've done a lot of research here on the board and I've discussed this clutch issue with 2 very long-term, respected Guzzi dealers with decades of experience.  All have confirmed what Al has been saying.  I don't want to flame a new contributor here, but he should be a lot more sure of his information before he spreads it around.  I think he's got the facts dead wrong.  If he's got it right,  a lot of guys have been lying to me and a lot of other guys here on the forum.  I prefer to belive that only one guy's got it wrong.  At least for now.

50998[/snapback]

 

 

Ops! the marks did not come all right: horizontaly the difference is as follow:

 

====== two discs clutches.

 

_-_ single discs.

 

 

Regarding the information I have just posted, I am simply translating the answers I got on the Anima Guzzista Forum. That's the topic:

 

http://www.guzzisti.it/forum/phpBB2/viewto...p?p=77397#77397

 

The single plates clutches mounted on the California were the very same used on Rosso Mandello. That is what have been written by trusted sources (people working at Moto Guzzi, dealers, mechanics) and that's what I have always heard. But don't worry, I will now translate your comments and ask for further confirmation. Rest reassured that the last thing I'd like to do is to spread false information about Guzzi.

 

Speak to you later.

 

G.

[dbdicker]

Ok, let me be clear here:

 

Since I've got one of the clutches in question, I've scoured my sources for information. they include this forum, with it's wealth of other interested parties (other owners of Scura's and RM's). For obvious reasons, we have more stake in getting the information right than other owners of various other MG's or those considering buying a Scura or early model RM and are happy to listen to whatever rumors are around.

 

Here's what I know/what's been told to me:

 

1) the clutch on the Scura/RM IS different from the recalled clutches on the Cali models, despite the fact that they are both single plate. This is confirmed by Guzzi dealers, who work on them every day.

2) There have been 4 confirmed failures of clutches, 3 in Europe and one in Australia. None of them were Rossos, I believe they were all Scuras. All 4 had certain characteristics before failure and all 4, if not being abused, were being certainly USED to the limit for extended periods of time. (high speed, wide open throttle, high rpm). NOT that a clutch should fail because of this, but it certainly brings into question the reliability of the unit, considering the way that MOST of us ride.

3) All 4 clutches showed measurable symptoms before failing including really evil, unmistakable noises.

4) Most of the Scura/RM clutches are now in there 3+ year of service, most with excess of 10,000+ miles on them without any noticable degradement, including mine.

 

Knowing this we can conclude:

 

If you live in Europe and have a tendency to whack the throttle wide open in 5th gear a lot and hold it there at 120mph+ while touring on the Autobahn for a large portion of your riding, you might want to consider another bike.

 

If, however, you ride anything like a normal human being ...........this clutch's possible failure should never be an issue. At the very least, if you read this forum and are aware of the symptoms, you are guaranteed ample time to remedy a failing clutch. This isn't just what I think. It's the opinion of Dave Richardson of MotoInternational, probably the most experienced Guzzi dealer in the US (author of Guzziology). I've got a heavy stake in this. One of the failed clutches blew up at high speed, locking the rear wheel. I'd rather not experience this, thank you very much. I doubt I have the talent to get out as cleanly as he did, with no injury. If I thought I was in legitimate danger of that, I wouldn't just swap the clutch......I'd dump the bike.

 

So when a new guy shows up claiming that "they all break, or all will break", I just gotta take that with a grain of salt. It's just not backed up by the facts, and he's got nothing to lose by spreading rumors of universal failure.

 

Dan

[Guest goffredo]

Ok, let me be clear here:

 

Since I've got one of the clutches in question, I've scoured my sources for information.  they include this forum, with it's wealth of other interested parties (other owners of Scura's and RM's).  For obvious reasons, we have more stake in getting the information right than other owners of various other MG's or those considering buying a Scura or early model RM and are happy to listen to whatever rumors are around.

 

Here's what I know/what's been told to me: 

 

1) the clutch on the Scura/RM IS different from the recalled clutches on the Cali models, despite the fact that they are both single plate.  This is confirmed by Guzzi dealers, who work on them every day.

2) There have been 4 confirmed failures of clutches, 3 in Europe and one in Australia. None of them were Rossos, I believe they were all Scuras.  All 4 had certain characteristics before failure and all 4, if not being abused, were being certainly USED to the limit for extended periods of time.  (high speed, wide open throttle, high rpm).  NOT that a clutch should fail because of this, but it certainly brings into question the reliability of the unit, considering the way that MOST of us ride.

3) All 4 clutches showed measurable symptoms before failing including really evil, unmistakable noises.

4) Most of the Scura/RM clutches are now in there 3+ year of service, most with excess of 10,000+ miles on them without any noticable degradement, including mine.

 

Knowing this we can conclude:

 

If you live in Europe and have a tendency to whack the throttle wide open in 5th gear a lot and hold it there at 120mph+  while touring on the Autobahn for a large portion of your riding, you might want to consider another bike. 

 

If, however, you ride anything like a normal human being  ...........this clutch's possible failure should never be an issue.  At the very least, if you read this forum and are aware of the symptoms, you are guaranteed ample time to remedy a failing clutch.  This isn't just what I think.  It's the opinion of Dave Richardson of MotoInternational, probably the  most experienced Guzzi dealer in the US (author of Guzziology).  I've got a heavy stake in this.  One of the failed clutches blew up at high speed, locking the rear wheel.  I'd rather not experience this, thank you very much.    I doubt I have the talent to get out as cleanly as he did, with no injury.  If I thought I was in legitimate danger of that, I wouldn't just swap the clutch......I'd dump the bike. 

 

So when a new guy shows up claiming that "they all break, or all will break",  I just gotta take that with a grain of salt.  It's just not backed up by the facts, and he's got nothing to lose by spreading rumors of universal failure.

 

Dan

51018[/snapback]

 

Dan,

I posted your remarks and I am now personally asking to all the people who claim the fact that the same clutches were mounted on RM and Cali to confirm it and back it up. So far I can tell you that this is exactly the info we all had many times from people who actually work in Moto Guzzi in Mandello.

I am no mechanic whatsoever (lot of passion but poor skills) and it is nightmare enough to me to trying to make myself clear in english but the story is how I told you. I can give you name and numbers of several official Guzzi dealers who serviced dozens of bike (Cali and Scura) replacing the single disc clutch with two disc models.

The same applies on the clutch failures... I can only say that your estimate seems optimistical to me. I myself can count for two failures of single plates clutches: one on a California (clutch worn out) and one on a Scura: clutch getting too noisy than changed (thank God after I came back from a 3000 km ride!) and I am talking about bikes I had to test ride by Moto Guzzi.

But again no need to get upset. I apologise if my statement seemed too dramatic but I repeat that what I reported is what I have been told by extremely reliable sources.

I asked to further confirm all the points. Now is quite late, but tomorrow I'll get back to you with the facts.

 

Again, you can think as you like but just google around and you'll probably will concede me that I am not the kind of person who spread nonsense around.

 

Cheers,

 

G.

[Guzzirider]

Can this be cleared up by looking at the part numbers in question for the RM and California and seeing if they are the same for both types of bike?

 

I have a Cali parts list on my PC if you tell me the model in question I will look it up for you.

 

Just a thought.

 

Guy

[Baldini]

I have the same information as Al & Dan. Again from various Guzzi dealers & this board & others. That is: Cali single plate is different unit to RM/Scura. Cali single plate problem was prematurely worn friction plate. Scura have had cracking (leading to disintegration) of flywheel. I have not heard of premature wear of friction plates on RM/Scuras, nor of disintegration of flywheel on Calis....

 

Goffredo - thank you for checking back on your information. You have no personal experience of either failure?

 

KB

[Baldini]

Spoke today with man who used to be tech at UK importers thru 90's told me Single plate clutches were never fitted to Calis. Also that twin plates have been known to pull their centres out & unit was modified to have stronger centre.

 

Half truths & misunderstandings repeated, embellished & mis-applied - Isn't the internet a wonderful thing...

 

Guess the moral is - don't go looking for trouble...

 

KB

[dbdicker]

Spoke today with man who used to be tech at UK importers thru 90's told me Single plate clutches were never fitted to Calis. Also that twin plates have been known to pull their centres out & unit was modified to have stronger centre.

 

Half truths & misunderstandings repeated, embellished & mis-applied - Isn't the internet a wonderful thing...

 

Guess the moral is - don't go looking for trouble...

 

KB

51094[/snapback]

 

 

Right on, KB. bad info is rife on the 'net. I only stepped in because this one really affects both YOU and ME in a very personal way, and we have a responsibility to be correct on this forum I think........

[Guest goffredo]

Right on, KB.  bad info is rife on the 'net.  I only stepped in because this one really affects both YOU and ME in a very personal way, and we have a responsibility to be correct on this forum I think........

51102[/snapback]

 

 

Hi all, I got all the information double checked.

 

1) Models such as Rosso Mandello and Tenni shares the very same clutch disc. This can be easily verify checking the spare part code.

 

2) From the very beginning (first appereance of the single disc plate clutch is on the Rosso Mandello) the RAM clutches did cause problems on the gear box.

 

3) at the same time when usage of the single plate clutch has been stopped on the V11 Scura and Tenni and on all the V11 the two discs clutches were used again, it was decided to use the huge stock of single plate clutches for models such as Cali Stone and Cali Ev. The same disc then generated completely different problems (premature worn out) because of different flywheel and gearbox on a 100% basis. ALL the Calis with single plate clutches worn out prematurely.

 

4) in these three years several amendements/improvements have been attempted in various parts of the clutches and gear in terms of change in material and or pieces (such as flange, molle, manicotti del cambio, sorry I do not know the translation of those parts) with less or no results hence Guzzi moved back to the traditional two disc clutches.

 

The above information comes from people who work at the Guzzi plant, assembling the bikes we ride. Clutches included. That's it. I stress again the fact that this info can be easily backed up by any dealer in Italy and that the numbers of clucth worn out or broken, or gear box failures caused by faulty clutch, have been huge.

 

Maybe I was too exagerated ( I hope Jim RM clutch never fails!) but the facts stay as stated.

 

Regards,

 

G.

 

PS: the guy I have the info from STILL works at Guzzi. The guy responsible for the idea of the single plate is gone.

[al_roethlisberger]

eeeeeeeeenteresting

[Guest goffredo]

I have the same information as Al & Dan. Again from various Guzzi dealers & this board & others.

 

Again, anyone is entitled their views, I assume. Me, I cannot see any reason not to trust the people who work at 57, Via Parodi, Mandello and mounted the very same discs on RM and Cali with their own hands. Also, being people I know as entirely correct human being. I assume it is more likely to imagine some sort of misunderstanging and/or flaws in information within abroad dealer and mechanics getting info from people who get info from other people, etc etc... But if a guy working at the plant tells me the clucthes on RM and Cali where in the same box in the plant...

 

That is: Cali single plate is different unit to RM/Scura.

Cali single plate problem was prematurely worn friction plate. Scura have had cracking (leading to disintegration) of flywheel. I have not heard of premature wear of friction plates on RM/Scuras, nor of disintegration of flywheel on Calis....

 

Info I had says we are talking about two different EFFECTS with the very same cause: with ergal, lighter, modified flywheel, the lighter single disc clutch either breaks or does stress the gearbox.

On the hoter hand Heavy flywheel wear out the disc and cause no damage to the gear box.

 

Goffredo - thank you for checking back on your information. You have no personal experience of either failure?

 

Both. Got a Cali and did less then 10 km on it: clutch "glued". Got a Scura, had the time of my life for 3000 km (best Guzzi ever ridden). Clutch then changed some 500 km after I brought it back with a dual disc clutch, as it is common practice.

 

All the best,

 

G.

[Baldini]

..Got a Scura, had the time of my life for 3000 km (best Guzzi ever ridden). Clutch then changed some 500 km after I brought it back with a dual disc clutch, as it is common practice....

 

Goffredo, Thanks for following up on this. Was your Scura clutch changed to a twin plate under warranty? What symptoms did it show? It may be common practice some places dealers to change out Scuras to twin plates but certainly not UK. I would really like to know if & in which territories single plates were changed as a matter of course, out of Scuras/ Tennis under warranty.

 

Re the Calis: I posted the question on Wildguzzi forum. mechanic at dealer confirmed there that single plates were fitted to late Calis. The tech man I spoke with finished with importers around 2000 so wouldn't've had experience of later bikes. Sorry for adding to the confusion.

 

KB