Shock Replacement or improvement

[big J]

Spoke to Richard at Maxton today, custom made shock for my weight/type of use will cost £480. Dear, but considering I'd been quoted £200 to rebuild the Sachs by another specialist or £695 for an Ohlins, I'm pretty pleased. Apparently thre was a Guzzi racing at the TT this year and Maxton did the suspension for it, fitted one of their shocks and resprung and revalved the Ohlins forks to suit the rider. Does anyone have any info, was it a v11 or an MGS?

[dlaing]

BigJ did a nice writeup on the Maxton here:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5631&hl=

[dlaing]

Here is another promising option:

I think it was designed by the guy from WP that designed Wilbers and HyperPro.

But this is a newer, more improved design.

GuzziTech.Com will be selling them.

At the moment they only have price for the dual shock Guzzis.

http://www.guzzitech.com/store/YSS-Suspensions.html

[dlaing]

Finally made a decision and went with a Penske.

Delivery was pretty quick for my customized numbers of 284 length and 68mm stroke.

For some reason they made a mistake and shipped it with bushings for 10mm bolts.

I contacted Lindemann Engineering and Jim Lindemann put me directly in touch with Penske who sent the correct bushing out FedEx overnight.

After getting the correct bushings earlier this week, I took the day off and installed the shock today. Installing the shock is pretty easy:

Pull the fuel tank, pull the airbox, jack the bike up, pull the Sachs, install the Penske, replace air box, replace tank.

The only tricky part was the remote resevoir.

The kit included two rubber cushions and two hose clamps.

I tried re-using the Sachs clamp, but the hose angles would not work well with it.

Finally I figured out that if I doubled up the hose clamp, I could mount it on the starter.

Not the prettiest install, but it works for me.

I took it for quick thirty mile ride, and came back pretty happy.

The improvement is not as great as it was going from the Marzocchi to the Ohlins forks, but it is certainly better.

Half the improvement is from going from my HyperCo 475 lb/in spring to a HyperCo 550 lb/in spring. I still have to do some more accurate sag measurements to know if it is the right rate. I may go with a 525 lb/in spring if this is too firm. Or maybe a HyperPro progressive spring.

The initial ride found it a bit firm, but it swallowed the big bumps much better. The bike feels more planted, but now the front feels like I need to firm up the damping and maybe add a firmer pair of springs.

[FuelCooler]

Finally made a decision and went with a Penske.

 

Half the improvement is from going from my HyperCo 475 lb/in spring to a HyperCo 550 lb/in spring. I still have to do some more accurate sag measurements to know if it is the right rate. I may go with a 525 lb/in spring if this is too firm. Or maybe a HyperPro progressive spring.

 

Nice shock dlaing!

If you are interested in a relatively cheap ($85 delivered) straight wound spring, try Summit Racing and look for Eibach coilovers. My spring (500#) was back ordered but it got here 4 days sooner than they promised. It is 2.25 ID and 6 inches long instead of 6.5 like the stock Sachs, but I still have some thead left for more preload. Your Penske looks to have plenty of thread. Combine that with a couple quarts of Shockproof Heavy for you next tranny and bevel box oil change to absorb the handling charges and its a pretty sweet deal.

 

Cheers,

Steve

[dlaing]

Nice shock dlaing!

If you are interested in a relatively cheap ($85 delivered) straight wound spring, try Summit Racing and look for Eibach coilovers. My spring (500#) was back ordered but it got here 4 days sooner than they promised. It is 2.25 ID and 6 inches long instead of 6.5 like the stock Sachs, but I still have some thead left for more preload. Your Penske looks to have plenty of thread. Combine that with a couple quarts of Shockproof Heavy for you next tranny and bevel box oil change to absorb the handling charges and its a pretty sweet deal.

 

Cheers,

Steve

...but is you spring red?

If it is, than I will go with Summit if I need a lighter spring.

Thanks for the tip.

When I ordered my 475# spring I went here

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_pro...;action=product

and also picked up two liters of shockproof, but they charged me twice for shipping

The oil shipped from HRP and the spring directly from HyperCo.

By the way, I am putting one of Sachs shocks up for sale in Classifieds

[Skeeve]

...

When I ordered my 475# spring...

 

What is the stock spring rated at? Seems like you made a big jump from #475 to #550; are these all higher than the stock wt., or have you been alternating the pasta- w/ the cardio- workouts, and so, needing to vary your spring rate from stock?

[FuelCooler]

...but is you spring red?

 

Not bright red like my frame.

Darker. Its probably the same red that is on all Eibach springs. I thought I wouldn't like the color, but it looks cool against the blue and gold of the Sachs.

[dlaing]

What is the stock spring rated at? Seems like you made a big jump from #475 to #550; are these all higher than the stock wt., or have you been alternating the pasta- w/ the cardio- workouts, and so, needing to vary your spring rate from stock?

I don't know what the stock shock is rated at.

My guess would be about 425-450 lbs/in.

My rider only sag number decreased a healthy amount when I went to the 475# spring, but not quite enough to reduce bottoming enough.

Allegedly the WP shock on the V1100Sporti were 475#, and also allegedly is the Ohlins shock spring that ships with Scura, Cafe, Rosso Corsa, etc.

 

When I went to #550, I let Lindemann Engineering make the decision based on their experience. I was thinking #525 would have been best, but I went with what they thought was best for me, perhaps they are correct????

I still need to get the sag right...Off to the garage with my wife to help me measure, but I wonder how many honey-dos this will cost me

EDIT only about 6 hours of honey-dos but obtaining accuracy makes it almost worth it I added to full turns of preload and then measured at the rear fender(which increases the number a little) and got:

21mm(~13/16") bike only sag and 29mm (~1-1/8")rider only sag, so the combined sag is 50mm(~1-15/16"), so maybe it is not too heavy of a spring, although measuring at the fender does increase the number

Ohlins recommends:

Bike only:

Rear: 5-15 mm

Front: 25-30 mm

Bike and Rider:

Rear: 30-40 mm

Front: 35-50 mm

So, I need about 15mm more preload and maybe even a heavier spring.

It could be I was bottoming out and feeling that as being too firm.

I know that was the problem with the Sachs.

EDIT II

Used my trusty plastic caliper and my wife measured from axle to muffler hanger and got:

6mm bike only

26mm rider only

32mm total sag

 

Penske recommends ~22mm - ~30mm total sag, so I am a little above Penske's recommendations and a little bit on the low side of Ohlins' recommendations, just where I want it. So the 550lb/in spring is not too hard. I must have been bottoming out. Now the bike feels much more compliant, and the Penske compliments the Ohlins But ideally, now I may need a little stiffer spring for the Ohlins forks.

 

Not bright red like my frame.

Darker. Its probably the same red that is on all Eibach springs. I thought I wouldn't like the color, but it looks cool against the blue and gold of the Sachs.

Forum member wscholar has a red Eibach on his Scura Ohlins...looks nice.

His is 600#/INCH!

But he is heavier AND sportier than I.

I saw a photo of a Penske with red Eibach spring and liked it more than the HyperCo blue...which is a nice high quality finish blue, but boring. If I wanted boring, I would go with black

[dlaing]

Another option is to install a HyperPro rising rate spring ( progressive spring ).

WCBallabio was pretty happy with the HyperPro springs in his bike.

I have to say, I have them on my '04 Ballabio as well and the bike never rode or handled as good as it does right now. It soaks up the small choppy bumps with ease, and never has the hard shock feel that it did.

 

Dive during braking is greatly reduced and cornering especially on imperfect surfaces is vastly improved. The HyperPro spring on the Sachs shock also did wonders for ride and handling.

 

Thanks too to Todd Eagan and Guzzitech for his suggestions and help selecting the proper springs for me. I could not be happier with the Ballabio's handling right now.

Thanks to the research of Ratchethack, BrianG and myself , we know something about the HyperPro spring.

The spring is 2.25" Inner Diameter x about 6.5" free length, which should work perfectly for either the Sachs or the Penske. We can be sure there are options available for other shocks, too.

 

This just in from Hyperpro.......

 

the spring you ask for is 57 mm inside diameter 165 mm long and has a

rate of 90 to 144 N/mm, it could fit.check for availlable space (length).

 

With kind regards

 

Peter van den Bogaard

 

############################################

WWW.HYPERPRO.COM

mailto:peter@hyperpro.com

I was concerned the spring might be too firm, especially after seeing the 144 N/mm number, but the following explanation and my experience of going from stock to 475# to 550# and wanting still a firmer spring, has led me to believe it should be fine at least for riders over 200 pounds.

Here is a comparison from Traxxion, for I believe Yamaha FZ1000 spring options, measuring the amount of weight needed to deflect each inch (note, the numbers do not compound)

 

HyperPro:

10mm Preload

1" 517 #/in.

2" 640

3" 728

 

HyperCo "Hypercoils" 7x550:

14mm preload

1" 530 #/in.

2" 550 #/in.

3" 565 #/in.

 

Translating the numbers that Peter van den Bogaard of HyperPro gave Brian and Ratchet in other threads, we get:

Start rate = 90.13 Nt/mm. = 9.190556 Kg/mm = 515.0929 lbs/inch

End rate = 144.2 Nt/mm. = 14.70407 Kg/mm = 824.103 lbs/inch[/i]

The 515# closely matches the 517# in the chart above, but the 824# does not match the 728#.

At first I was thrown off by the numbers and thought the spring would be too firm.

I had feared this meant that the deflection would look like this:

HyperPro:

10mm Preload

1" 515 #/in.

2" ~650

3" 824

 

But, I think that means that at first it acts like a 515# spring, but with a progressive force that after three inches require 824# of force.

 

HyperPro:

10mm Preload

1" 515 #/in.

2" ?

3" 1885

 

HyperCo "Hypercoils" 7x550:

14mm preload

1" 530 #/in.

2" 1080 #/in.

3" 1644 #/in.

 

Which is not as severe a difference.

 

Cutting the numbers in half due to the leverage of the swing arm, we can estimate how much weight on the bike is needed to deflect the spring

 

HyperPro:

10mm Preload

1" 258 #/in.

2" 578

3" 942

 

HyperCo "Hypercoils" 7x550:

14mm preload

1" 265 #/in.

2" 540 #/in.

3" 822 #/in.

 

I think the HyperPro will offer more comfort on small bumps and less bottoming on big bumps, and may better match the airspring/metal spring of the front forks.

 

NOTE:

This originally appeared in this thread:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...ost&p=53998

If the preloads were the same, the Hypercoil numbers in the first table should be a little lower.

Since the ratio of leverage on the spring is about two to one we might presume that we can cut the numbers in half and add them up see how much weight it will take to deflect each spring/

Note shock stroke on Sachs is about 60mm or about 2-2/5", so we won't be seeing force corresponding to the third inch of stroke.

[BrianG]

From Dan of Traxxion Dynamics: spring specs for The Hyperco’s that they supply for the Penske are 2.25 ID, OD will depend on spring rate. The free length would be either 5” or 6”, depending on the shock body chosen..

 

This implies that the HyperPro progressive spec'd above by Peter van den Bogaard should work.

[dlaing]

Here are some places to buy springs:

 

HyperPro from Guzzitech http://www.guzzitech.com/store/HyperPro-FS.html

Or HyperPro from HyperPro http://www.hyperpro.com/products/springkits.asp

Here is Guzzitech's current pricing.

Fork Spring Kit: $139.00 + $12 shipping within the U.S.

Rear Spring: $126.00 + $12 shipping within the U.S.

Combi Spring Kit: $259.00 + $20 shipping within the U.S.

HyperPro rising rate springs are pretty close to a one size fits all solution, simply set the sag, but for out of the ordinary weights (I am guessing 400 pounds) be sure to contact them, as they MAY offer other spring rates.

HyperPro also offer lowering kits that lower the suspension at the spring. But I don't know if they have anything for our model.

 

 

Hypercoils by Hyperco

 

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_pro...;action=product

Rear Spring: $66.95 + 9.60 shipping within continental U.S or Canada

The rising rate HyperPros are a great choice for sport touring and street conditions, but Hypercoil straight rate are the racers choice. HyperCoils are about as light as you can get without going to a titanium or composite spring, and the durability is first rate. Also, they come in a large assortment of sizes and spring rates.

A good selection of spring weights will help you dial in the suspension, and the straight rate of the spring better matches the damping in the shock absorber.

HRP World has great prices, but Traxxion's staff understands motorcycles and can help you select the right spring rate

http://www.traxxion.com/store/detail.asp?product_id=SSH

[ChrisPDX]

Hi Friends:

I thought I'd share a bit about my experience on this topic.  I purchased and revived a 2001 "Greenie" which had the original Sachs unit.  After looking around, reading here, and reflecting on past experiences I purchased and installed a Penske on my bike.  It's their 8983 style with remote reservoir part number PS-8983-MOTOGUZZI-V11.  For my 170LBs they recommended a 500LB spring.  Please see attached photos of how I mounted it, which came out nice and clean.  The unit bolted in easily, and the bike stance remains same as previous (I dropped the front end so 10mm fork shows above triple clamp to put a bit more weight on the front end).

I'd describe the ride as plush-but-controlled, very much in line with my previous Penske experience on a VFR.  It's almost a little (intentionally) soft right at the beginning of the stroke - which feels comfortable on uneven urban streets and secondary back roads.  There's absolutely no harshness, but is supportive.

Penske delivered the shock in about 2 weeks.  I just called them directly, explained make-model, and it couldn't have been easier.  I paid full price.

For what it's worth, past experience with Penske on race and street bikes indicates they also have the benefit of being easily and endlessly rebuildable.  Nothing complicated, just good quality, Made in USA, easy parts availability, and any shop that rebuilds shocks can handle fresh oil/seals on a Penske.  Not cheap, of course, but a buy-it-once buy-it-right sort of solution.  

Also, looks quite proper on the bike IMO, with relatively subtle color shock/spring details that do not try and compete/clash with the rest of the bike.

I hope this helps someone who's considering improving their suspension, and maybe shortens your path regarding mounting etc.