rear wheel woes

[pete roper]

Geez Pete, we all can't have vast reserviors of flammable hot air like you in which to properly guage 'your' version of the proper torque, never mind the torque values given by the company that actually made the bloody machines!

I guess when you have an engine build in front of you, you must fill up with lovely stuff like chili, broccolli, and other notable gas boosters.

What's the torque when you piss your pants?

                                                                        Ciao, Steve G.

56805[/snapback]

 

The pants-pissing occurs when the bloody apprentice decides to light up a blowtorch next to you when you're covered in brake cleaner!!!!!

 

Steve, I was only gently ribbing everyone. The thing is that it's a bloody MOTORBIKE, it is not some incredibly delicate, sophisticated, sensitive work of art. It is designed to be given a flogging by the keen and the ignorant, both on the road and in the garage. Stuff like wheel spindles are always massively over-engineered not only for safety reasons in terms of working loads but specifically to ensure that mongoloids can't hurt themselves and then sue the manufacturer.

 

If we were talking about a MotoGP bike where weight has been parred off to the very limits of safelty it might well be an issue, especially if the spindles were made of something horrid like Titanium but we're talking here about a sodding great 2cm thick steel bar with a whopping great thread and a huge nut on it. as long as it's done up tight that's all that matters!

 

When you are looking at stuff like engine parts, most specifically things made of soft alloy that have to be evenly clamped to prevent warpage then yes, a torque wrench is a VITAL tool but obsessively worrying about what torque you put on a wheel spindle nut is, I'm afraid, plain daft! unless, as I said, the spacer material is so inferior that it may deform if over torqued and that, I'm afraid, is shoddy engineering!

 

I know that common sense isn't that common nowadays but are you really saying that the majority of people are so gormless that they can't judge when a spindle nut is tight enough? It doesn't bode well for the future of the human race if that is so. Then there is the issue of 'Is my torque wrench accurate?' when was it last re-calibrated? Against what? Were the threads on the spindle clean and lubricated so that the torque reading was correct? C'mon?!?!?! There is accuracy, then there is obsessional behavior and bone-head stupidity! Lets step back and look at this sensibly.

 

Pete

[dlaing]

The concern over the torque number was not an exposition of retentive tire changing technique, rather it was all about the force on "The Chosen" spacer, and how it might compress it.

I think the DOM will hold up fine with the 0.25mm overcut from flush assuming it is tempered.

But, something like this

89955K64

Alloy Steel Grd 4130 Aircraft Quality Tubing .083" Wall X 1" OD, 6' Length

May hold up better and be lighter. It will be lighter since it is thinner

I still like the idea of saving three ounces on the rear end.

Heck, some pay $1000 just to save a pound or two at the wheel.

It would be nice to start losing weight somewhere, as long as we use our noggins and confirm that the metal won't mash.

I have tried to put a hacksaw through aircraft grade aluminum, and the stuff is HARD.

I don't see why it won't work here.

[Guest ratchethack]

Gents! Maybe I'm "gormless", and lacking "gorm", what would I know? But since those of us who haven't replaced our spacers now understand that the stock piece is of suspect "weedy" quality and vulnerable to deformation, which would tend to explain at least some of the many bearing failures at the rear wheel, isn't it now even more important to pay more attention, not less, to spindle torque, lest over-torquing bring on more spacer deformation and bearing failure?

 

As to Alu or steel for new spacers, I see absolutely no reason to favor one material over the other. Hardened steel is generally both harder and heavier than hardened Alu alloy. So to achieve equal compression strength in the same application, an Alu alloy part has to be more massive. Is there any mystery involved here? Pick one that's stronger than the the stock one (shouldn't be too difficult either way) and go with it.

 

As Pete pointed out, when you've got a freakin' transmission bolted up to your wheel hub making up by far and away the vast majority of the unsprung weight on the entire motorcycle, chasing a few grams of weight differential between different spacer materials would seem to be, err... somewhat less than rational. What would few grams of weight savings be percentage-wise relative to the 25-lb. hub it's bolted to?!? How many zeros can you put to the right-hand side of a decimal point before you put an integer!?!? Cleaning the road grime off your wheel and hub would seem to make more sense in terms of unsprung weight savings...

 

But what do I know, since I reckon I might be gormless. Where's my dictionary...

[jrt]

Pete, dude....you need to listen to this.

I do cinch up the axel nut by hand. Not quite until farting, but reasonably close. Maybe some do use a torque wrench, but that (obsessive?) behaviour is part of the enjoyment of working on their own bike.

Many of us on this forum are not professional mechanics. Folks like yourself and a few others can laugh, but it does me good to occasionally look at the numbers. I've stripped more than one bolt due to ham-fisted twisting. Besides were talking a discrepency here of an order of magnitude.

Gently ribbing? Remember, intonation doesn't come through the typewriter very well.

Anyone have some spare gorm?

[Guest ratchethack]

From Blackie's Down Under Dictionary of Medical Slang:

 

gorm (gorm) n. A component of blood plasma having unique properties of interaction with certain hormones and the parasympathetic nervous system. The percentage of gorm present in blood varies directly with the amount of torque exerted by a human arm on the handle of a wrench. Gorm increases by volume with force exerted relative to overal plasma volume. With an increase in gorm, the body is made ready to fart explosively just before critical torque sufficient to strip threads or deform spacers is attained. Advanced gorm control may be attained over many decades by the repeat dropping of flywheels on non-safety-toe-shod feet.

[jrt]

Dammit Ratchet, you owe me a keyboard.

[pete roper]

Gents!  Maybe I'm "gormless", and lacking "gorm", what would I know?   But since those of us who haven't replaced our spacers now understand that the stock piece is of suspect "weedy" quality and vulnerable to deformation, which would tend to explain at least some of the many bearing failures at the rear wheel, isn't it now even more important to pay more attention, not less, to spindle torque, lest over-torquing bring on more spacer deformation and bearing failure?

 

 

Yup, agreed, (I think I mentioned as much didn't I???) The thing is if the spacer was properly made in the first place, and really even if it isn't, I still maintain that it's common sense how tight you'd do such a thing up. I hate to think how tight you'd have to try and do it up to actually destroy the thread on the spindle!!! It would have to be 'Yard long breaker bar with a six foot bit of scaffold on it' tight though!

 

If the spacer has sufficient compressive strength though all the other bits in the stack are made of hardened steel and will take enormous loads in compression without deforming appreciably, We aren't taking about coarse pitch threads in soft alloy like the drain plugs in bevelboxes f'rinstance.

 

I can understand novices who don't want to strip stuff like 6mm bolts in rocker covers perhaps feeling that an inch/pound torque wrench might be a useful tool to prevent damage but having said that when I was first learning about working on motorbikes I never has the benefit of anything more than the most very basic of tool kits and I can't remember ever having stripped a small fastener, it just seems easy to judge what is sufficient in terms of torque in those situations. Maybe that's just me though.

[Baldini]

...bloody ...everyone.....bloody...flogging ....ignorant...mongoloidsetc...etc...

 

Just knew there'd be trouble.... ...now...if we all keep our voices down - praps He 'll go back to sleep.....

 

KB

 

PS: Anyone know different torques for plastic & metal valve caps?

[big J]

Depends on the ambient air temperature

[pete roper]

From Blackie's Down Under Dictionary of Medical Slang:

 

gorm (gorm) n. A component of blood plasma having unique properties of interaction with certain hormones and the parasympathetic nervous system.  The percentage of gorm present in blood varies directly with the amount of torque exerted by a human arm on the handle of a wrench.  Gorm increases by volume with force exerted relative to overal plasma volume.  With an increase in gorm, the body is made ready to fart explosively just before critical torque sufficient to strip threads or deform spacers is attained.  Advanced gorm control may be attained over many decades by the repeat dropping of flywheels on non-safety-toe-shod feet.

56825[/snapback]

 

Actually, to quote the Penguin Macquarie;

 

Gormless, adj. Colloq.(of a person.) Dull; Stupid; Senseless.-Gormlessness n.

 

Yours has a much higher humour quotient though I'm surprised you weren't familiar with the term? I spent a whole afternoon in detention in primary school for using the word in an essay to describe my geography teacher. She was a miserable old shag-nasty though with no sense of humour at all! One of the very few women I've ever seen who's hands were covered in a thick pelt of fur and had nostrils like the entrance to the channel tunnel only filled with trees!!! Sorry, NGC.

 

Pete

[belfastguzzi]

Blimey. I thought that the fender extender threads were really interesting, until I read this one.

 

Anyone know what's the best sort of oil to use in a motorbike? Where's the best place to put it and how long does it last?

[big J]

Eh? Whaddaya mean, oil?

[jrt]

I think what Big J is politely saying is that electric bikes don't need oil.

[dlaing]

chasing a few grams of weight differential between different spacer materials would seem to be, err... somewhat less than rational.

56820[/snapback]

OKay, so I am the only one gormless enough to pursue a one percent saving on weight.

What the hell, lets just go with a ceramic pipe since we only need hardnesss and compressive strength.

This is not quite the right shape ceramic pipe, but I'll be searching and will get back to you when I find the perfect pipe

[callison]

Jeez Dave, if all you want is to save weight, a mere $1,164.44 USD will get you an entire rear frame section for a V11 Sport fabricated out of aluminum.

 

 

aluminum 1.4kg.

steel 4.6kg