Balancing fuel injectors

[Guest PAULSMART]

Any one have a guide to balancing the fuel injectors??

 

Firstly being more experienced with good ol' carbs, I'm assuming that like the jets and needles of a carb, once set up (for Powercommder / open pipes etc)a fuel injection system can't go out of adjustment, and therefore poor running is down to the injector bodies being out of balance???

 

the bike is fine above 4500rpm, but is lurching at lower revs, and hic-ups occasionly.

 

So, what should I fiddle with??

 

Paul Smart

[O2 V11]

Paul, see if this helps at all.

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...093entry55093

Do a search as well on "balancing throttle bodies". Other suggestions could be plugs, valve clearances OK? I can't imagine it being a serious fix.

Rob

[jrt]

lurching/coughing at lower revs suggests that it may be running lean (although out of balance TB's will cause similar results).

I have a write-up from Ian Johnston (588K, pdf file) that I would be happy to send you. I am having trouble uploading to the board, so just send me a pm with an email address.

[Guest hogjockey]

Any one have a guide to balancing the fuel injectors??

 

Firstly being more experienced with good ol' carbs, I'm assuming that like the jets and needles of a carb, once set up (for Powercommder / open pipes etc)a fuel injection system can't go out of adjustment, and therefore poor running is down to the injector bodies being out of balance???

 

the bike is fine above 4500rpm, but is lurching at lower revs, and hic-ups occasionly.

 

So, what should I fiddle with??

 

Paul Smart

56029[/snapback]

tell me is this affecting your fuel economy or not??????

[Guest PAULSMART]

I've no idea - I don't really measure fuel consumption - anyway if I keep above 5000rpm, it runs sweet - so I keep to the open road and avoid town / urban riding as much as possible

 

Paul

[quazi-moto]

I've had similar symptoms with my '02 LeMans. Its been compounded by the addition of Staintunes, Stucchi x-over and FBF intake kit. I've got a PCIII on it and I just swapped out the TPS sensor for the Harley style unit which is made by Marelli also. On a Guzzi this TPS sensor is supposed to allow the bike to run a little richer in the low to mid RPM range. I also used a Twinmax balancer unit to synch the throttle bodies. I disconnected the linkage bar and closed the air bleed screws. I set the right hand throttle stop first to get the appropriate signal voltage (500-525mv) and then I connected the Twinmax unit and fired up the bike. Then I adjusted the left hand stop screw for balance. I blipped the throttle a little to check for consistent balance. Then I cracked open the air bleeds about a 1/2 turn and checked again for balance. All was well so I re-connected the link bar, after a little adjustment of the white knob so as not to disrupt anything. I did a final check for balance at idle and with some throttle applied. I also checked the TPS voltage again and everything was spot on. Out on the road the bike feels smoother, but it still surges a little bit between 3500-4000 RPM or thereabouts. I think my next move is to bring it to a tuning center with a dyno to get the map in the PCIII tweaked.

[Guest motts]

I have forever had low RPM problems, hiccups and the occassional stall. The word has always been you're not doing it right. Eventually you get an inferriority complex and turn into a forum lurker.

 

What I have found is:

1) My throttle body thumb wheel has a tendancy to go out of adjustment frequently. So like I would wire my oil plug for a track day, I wire the thumb wheel when the throttle bodies are set.

2) One night I rhode into my minimumly lit common apartment garage and saw my pipes glowing red hot. I got out my laptop, connected it to my PC3 and started richening the idle mixture until the bright red glow turned into a dark almost non-visible glow.

 

The second finding has been the single most significant thing to happen. My bike stopped behaving badly at idle. It still stutters a bit while idling, but it stopped stalling when I would close the thottle ubruptly and stop for a traffic light and it no longer would stall at a light. I felt redeemed and stopped lurking on different forums and started telling people these bikes are being set up too lean.

 

My gas milleage has not gone down the toliet one little bit!

 

The only thing I have to do as a result is zero my map before going into the dealer for a tune up. They are anal about meeting their CO² figures and will screw with your TPS to meet their requirement (i.e. to get to a point on your map where the map is 0 and they can meet their overly lean measurement criteria). When they set my bike up, I am always back to the bad behavior, stalling at lights and hot running in the city, but as soon as I get home, in goes the rich at idle map and all is well with the world.

 

There is a common hiccup while cruising on my bike at 3500 RPM in 5th on the Autoroute. I have been able to richen the mixture there as well and move the RPM point of that hiccup off the 3500 edge up to 4200, but the bike runs so much better I have not pursued this small problem at this time.

 

Hope this helps!

[Guest ratchethack]

Motts, though you're in Paris, where presumably dealers have different "motiviations" WRT emission restrictions than here in the US , your experience adds more confirmation to what I've long suspected about dealers here also. I b'lieve they set 'em up LEAN. I agree with you - far better to go a little rich. I suspect that many tuning characteristics are directly transferrable from the V11 engine to the V10 and vice-versa. I note you own both. I tune my bike myself, but also have a PC3, and have found that experimenting with richer settings via the TPS has not degraded fuel efficiency.

 

BTW - in my case, keeping rev's in higher RPM ranges at speed by using lower gears doesn't seem to degrade fuel efficiency either. It's been somewhat surprising, but I'm not complaining! May I suggest that 3500 RPM in 5th on the autoroute may be a bit low. You might experiment by dropping into 4th at the same speed, which would put you at about 4500 RPM. This would get your torque halfway "out of the hole", where the engine can start to breathe much more efficiently against the load of pushing the bike at speed.

 

I've experienced the "hiccup" you describe, though it's been much less frequent since the PC3, and in my case, riding above 4500 RPMs makes it all but disappear. Since I first began keeping the R's up this way (after I installed the PC3) I've become used to cleaner and smoother running overall. I realize this isn't "natural" for many, but not dropping below 4500 at crusing speed has since become a habit for Yours Truly. Per the above, I suspect your mileage wouldn't suffer too much, if at all - and it may even improve - might just be worth a try. Provided you don't think I'm completely full of $hite on this (heh, heh...and especially if you DO!) , I'd appreciate any feedback!

[quazi-moto]

There's been some discussion that the 1.5M ECU has an inherent lean spot in the mid-range that a PCIII can't fully correct. I don't know if that's true or not, but I've had trouble getting rid of that pesky lean area around 3500-4000 RPM. Changing to the Harley TPS seems to have helped on the bottom end. No more crapping out at red lights! I had a dealer fart around with my map, but even they couldn't completely dial out the lean zone. I ended up using the faceplate buttons to richen up the mid-range, but it was only semi-effective (is that a word?). I'm thinking dyno or a different ECU like the MY15M unit. I wonder if the ECU's that come with the titanium muffler kits offer better mid-range fuel delivery. Its interesting that my bike seems to run great when its cold, but after its up to operating temperature and the sensor on the cylinder head starts talking to Mr. ECU the dang thing leans out and starts to sputter in the mid-range. Other than that the goose runs pretty well.

[Mr. Bean]

It may be a no-brainer for everyone here and I'm probably the last to figure this out...but I found the key to getting the throttle bodies balanced on my bike was to adjust the throttle linkage rod on the opposit side from the white adjustment knob first. I found myself with a situation where no matter how hard I tried...If I balanced the throttle bodies at idle, it would be off at all other rpms. I could only get it balanced at one RPM setting, all others would be off. It turned out the adjustment the factory made on the linkage was wrong. After scraping off the yellow paint I spent a good amount of time carefully balancing the throttle bodies with the linkage disconnected first only using the adjustment hex screws, then setting the rod to the correct length so that it would not change the adjustment at idle but would also be balanced at 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpms. It was super sensitive, and took many tries but now on the Twin Max, from idle to 5000 rpm the needle never goes past 1/2 in either direction at maximum sensitivity. Before if it were balanced at 3000, it would be at left 3 or so at idle. The bike runs sooo much better now that it is hard to believe that it's the same engine. My mirrors are actually usable at highway speeds!

 

Incidently other settings on my bike are: 3.6 degrees of throttle at idle. By pass screws at 1/4 turn out. Idle at 1050 to 1100. Fuel trim at +17. Idle CO at 4.5 to 5% (not sure how accurate this is...old gas analyzer machine used...)

[quazi-moto]

Is the fuel trim adjustment underneath the plug/bung thingy on the ECU?

[Mr. Bean]

Is the fuel trim adjustment underneath the plug/bung thingy on the ECU?

59607[/snapback]

 

From what I understand, the little plastic thing is actually the barometric pressure sensor. On the 15M, the fuel trim is controlled by the dealer software. It is available at http://www.technoresearch.com/Products/VDS...S-Motorbike.htm

 

Randy

[jimbemotumbo]

There's been some discussion that the 1.5M ECU has an inherent lean spot in the mid-range that a PCIII can't fully correct.

59540[/snapback]

 

I thought so too until I learned how to set up the EFI properly. Honestly, the miss goes away when TPS voltage and TB balance is right. Check my sputtering thread post in the Tech section.

 

One thing I did not mention is that my map the 003 on efrom DJ website, was tweaked +2 at 3000 rpm and 2 and 5% throttle. I never changed it after doing the full EFI tune up, so it is possible this map tweak is responsible for the 3k miss going away. I still think it is primarily due to the EFI setup, since all my other hesitations, misses and coughs went away with the tune.

 

Hope this helps.

[Ouiji Veck]

At the risk of beating a dead horse...

I got rid of all hiccups, farts, burps,stalls,hesitatons by adjusting

my throttle bodies on the fly.

Think about it. While your sitting and idleing in your garage looking at needles and

dials I'm under load @ 3200rpms (right where the skip WAS) listening and feeling

the heart beat. I cruise @ 3000RPMs every where. Runs like a sewing machine from

1000RPMs to 8000RPMs ( I will set the TSP next time though. Just to start from zero.)

Maybe I just got lucky. I'm dying for someone else to try my method. This hiccup thing seems so chronic and alot of people are working so hard to get results that sound utterly unacceptable. I hope I don't end up eating my words but mine's been purrrfect for about 4000mi.

Voltage and dynos and maps.....oh my!

C'mon...somebody give it a whirl....

Take note of where your starting from..

Turn the big white SPICKET a 1/16th turn and ride it where it sputters....repeat.

Try it 5-6 times in one direction....no improvement? ..worse...?

Go back to zero and try the other direction...

Worked like a charm for me...

Of course if yous blows up...I was never here...I never said nuttin'....

What is the worse that could happen....run crappy?...backfire?..

In all seriousness if anyone thinks this method could cause damage speak up

and set me straight....I would delete this message post haste.

I ended up actually rotating the adjuster 3/8ths of a turn. Is that alot? Not much?

Compared to your experiances?

[jimbemotumbo]

I got rid of all hiccups, farts, burps,stalls,hesitatons by adjusting

my throttle bodies on the fly.

61424[/snapback]

 

Indeed, this would work if you were somewhere in the ballpark with your balance. My poor goose was so far off the mark I would have driven into something while spinning the white knob so much!

 

I am enjoying the visual though ... watching all the cars and bicycles dodging the flying Ouiji as he sorts the Goose with one hand, and chugs a beezo with the other.