New Guzzi-Shakedown

[Dr Gil]

Alrighty then.

 

I’ve just recently returned from the first “shake-down” cruise on my "new-to-me" 2002 Moto Guzzi Le Mans. My wife, on her Suzuki SV650S and I on the Le Mans traveled from Eureka, California to Bend, Oregon to attend a barbecue and then back again. The trip totaled about 800 miles over the course of a weekend and I must admit it was a bit of a grind.

 

Right up front I should identify my riding style as being pretty much “sports-touring.” I bought the Le Mans because it gives me the feeling I want when riding a motorcycle and am now trying to find that happy place where I do the necessary modifications to it to let me ride longer miles each day while maintaining what attracted me to it in the first place.

 

I was pretty much flying blind on this trip. I was riding a new motorcycle (having owned it for just less than 2 weeks AND it being my first Guzzi… (formally being a Triumph Triple sorta guy). I had some serious concerns about all the vibrations, the noise (aftermarket carbon fiber exhaust…oh my!) and the stock seat. These concerns turned out to be so very real. The vibration is tiring, the noise is tiring and the stock seat turned into a cement slab after the first 100 miles or so and is tiring. I was tired. I think of myself as pretty much of a 400 mile-a-day sort of guy. I’m no 1,000 mile “Iron But-ter” but I really don’t really feel like I’ve ridden anywhere unless I’ve put in 300+ miles a day. This bike in its present configuration has knocked about 100 miles per day off my total “comfort” range for me. But no worries…these are things I wanted to know and were what I wanted to learn from this ride. The reduced miles is ok with me (very little ego here)…I found the miles I did travel were all “quality” miles and so what if I can’t travel as far each day. I still believe the Le Mans IS the sports-touring bike I want to ride and my 400 preferred miles are still quite possible. So let the modifications begin!

 

First thing home last Sunday after getting off the bike and even before taking off the riding boots was to go online and check into seats. Rich Maund’s name keeps coming up. From here on the V11 site, from the ST.N site AND from word of mouth (yes, I may have ranted a bit to anyone who would listen about “stock” seats and why can’t anyone seem to get them right) at the ST.N West Coast Regional II barbecue (this was the event we traveled to attend…I should mention that the bike arrived to actual “thunderous” applause from the 20 or so attendees as I rode up and was given a place of honor, in the driveway right next to a Ural w/sidecar, to park it). Bottom line is that my seat goes off to Rich the second weekend in August for a total makeover. Ok, this solves the seat problem.

 

Next thing to deal with is the bars. I installed a pair of Throttlemeister weights/throttle control bar ends before I left on this trip. They helped a lot. They tamed much of the vibration and with their help I was able to give my hands a much needed, periodic rests as I traveled down the road. I find myself either through my own laziness OR through fatigue OR because the bike doesn’t fit me quite right yet that I MAY need to raise bars a bit but mostly bring them back to me. That decision will wait until I have Rich’s seat installed and then we’ll see if that changes things. Baby steps.

 

The last real concern is the, what I consider, overly loud exhaust. Curse me for being some sort of Harley, all-about-the-noise freak but there are times I find I like it. Then there are those other times like when I’m leaving the house at 5:30 in the morning to commute to work and I’m cringing about waking the neighbors…or I’m riding like a pig and my shift points are wrong, my clutch work is shite, my choice of gears atrocious and the WHOLE WORLD knows what’s going on because I’m SO LOUD…or, as was the case during this trip that the doing 400 miles plus over the course of the day and find I’m just sick and tired of listening to that NOISE. Sheesh, it’s exhausting. So anyhoo, I don’t know what I’m going to do about the exhaust yet. Wait and see is my plan at the moment. My suspicion is that I’ll either grow to like all this “storm and fury” more or to simply find I hate it…either way; my decision should become obvious at some point further down the road.

 

Rereading this posting I realize I’ve spent all my time bitching about a bike I truly love and may have given you all the wrong impression. The Le Mans is ALL that I hoped it would be and I’ve never ridden a motorcycle more exciting and it has totally ruined me for riding/owning anything else! I continually feel like pinching myself as I’m riding down the road, feeling the bike, feeling the road, feeling the vibration, worrying about “what the hell was that noise?” and just being amazed at how good it all feels. I’m hooked.

 

Ok, I should give you some “high points” here. One came when I was registering the bike at the California DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) here last week. The person I was dealing with, a rider herself (although a “Harley” rider) was a bit taken aback when I showed her the Guzzi…now understand that this is her job, she’s seen thousands of bikes and is an enthusiast and she asks me: “what kind of bike did you say this is again? Yes, it is beautiful but I’ve never EVEN HEARD OF IT!” Second was when Becky (wife) and I rolled in to fuel up at a gas station in Oregon. In Oregon it is apparently state law that they must at least personally hand you the nozzle if you decline to let them fuel your bike. The young service attendant stared at the Guzzi as he came over and approached it somewhat timidly (I told you it is loud). He was all slack jawed and obviously curious/in awe of the bike. Becky, noticing this winked at him and said, “It’s Italian.” This seemed to satisfy him somewhat. Thirdly was a small private moment I had as I was coming home from work last week. I was sitting at a traffic light waiting for it to change. As I sat there on this rumbling beast, vibrating so badly that I can’t see anything out of the mirrors and in my mind resembling some sort of drag-bike at the track, I happened to glance at the car next to me that contained two young men. Both were perched forward in their seats to get a view of me and the Le Mans. The one nearest me, all big-eyed, mouthed the words, “MOTO GUZZI” at me. Judging by the VERY round shape he was making with his lips he was pronouncing the name just right…it’s a GOOOOOTSIE!

[velofish]

re: vibration. Are you revving it high enough? When I first got my goose, I was upshifting too soon. Now that the tach has thoughtfully died, I just rev it until it is smooth. As a result, I am using more revs and the bike and my hands are much happier. If I am hauling ass, I shift when I hit the rev limiter.

 

6th gear is ONLY for speeds above 85. Try it You'll like it.

 

John

[Guest ratchethack]

Gil, I think your approach is spot-on: Baby steps.

 

V-fish makes a very good point. Gotta keep the revs up. Sure it'll pull at 3K, but resist the temptation to load the engine in this range. This isn't generally a good thing. As an excercise, try not accelerating at all unless you've got at least 4K on the tach, preferrably 5K. Don't have it up to 4K, and want to accelerate? Downshift until you do. Row the shifter between at least 5-6K. Repeat. Wanna wick it up? Go 6-7K. Establish that muscle/sound/feel memory as a reflex.

 

Sounds to me like the level of vibration may be excessive. I'd start by balancing the throttle bodies. If they're out of balance (as so often seems the case until new owners wise up), trips into the hundreds of miles can be more like punishment, when they could so easily be more like pure enjoyment. If your TBs aren't in sync, the whole ride is compromised. This ain't no Harley - it's got perfect primary balance, for God's sake! Nevermind the secondary imbalance thing...it's minor, relatively speaking.

 

The cumulative fatigue-inducing effects of excessive vibration over many hours due to out of balance TBs can make the seat seem harder and even the sound (with many aftermarket mufflers) seem more like torture than what it really is - Guzzi music, of course! I have Throttlemeister Heavy (16-oz.) bar ends and FBF oval carbons, which many consider fairly generous with the decibels. Keeping rev's over 4500 at cruising speed, I hardly even hear the exhaust (let the rev's drop below 4K under load, however, and the basso profundo starts to bore into my skull PDQ!). In fact, neither vibration nor sound bother me whatsoever with the revs in the proper range, and I may be more sensitive to sound than average (can't take the induction honk of an open airbox, so I run the stock air box). Nope, I don't use ear plugs, never will.

 

May I suggest Carl Allison's excellent write-up on balancing TBs, which includes setting the throttle position sensor (TPS) but doesn't mention the highly recommended pre-requisite opening of valve clearances to at least World Spec .004" and .006" - some (myself included) go .006" and .008" - as a great place to start, and has excellent illustrations. Carl's write-up on his home page is:

 

http://home.pacbell.net/guzzi007/tps/TPS.html

 

NOTE: You can back-probe the TPS connector at the throttle body instead of tapping into the wires at the ECU with your DVM/DMM. I find this easier. In fact, I use bell wires with insulated female spade connectors attached shoved thru the rubber boot and just leave 'em on, zip-tied back to the connector, so I can instantly get a TPS reading. There are other write-ups on this forum and at GuzziTech.com on balancing the TBs, and it doesn't hurt to get other perspectives. The procedure may look difficult at first, but you should be able to master it without too much time & effort. When you do, and you get it right, I suspect you might well tack another 100 miles/day right back on. Baby steps.

[tomsp]

Oh Brother.... wish I could help sort this out! But the forum is great. You know, my custom 2" risers would work just fine on your bike. These things were custom made for me in Texas by a pro fabracator . Best I've seen. I'll have to check them out and make sure they are not bent!

[Steve G.]

The seats on this series of machine were [i believe] designed for the sitting position/weight bias of the original V11, which had lower bars than your Lemans. This placed more weight on the wrists, and feet, and less on the seat. It may well be that you have to get a better seat, especially if you are planning to get taller bars, placing even more weight on the posterior.

The vibration of a Moto Guzzi is, well, vibration all right. I say this, pointing out that I am a long time owner of a Norton Commando, a serious vibrator at slow speeds, and a Laverda Jota, a violent shaker at speeds over 90mph. There are many ways which have been used by owners of this series of machines to reduce this. I found the vibration of my '01 V11 to be verging on totally unacceptable when brand new. With the characteristic slow breaking in of these engines, I was surprised how the thing mellowed, seemingly [and probably actually] needing less power to run itself, realizing that it is in fact the working power pulses that cause the uncomfortable vibes, as there is virtually nothing when the engine is not "working". Additionally, I have experimented with several things to reduce/eliminate this characteristic. Bar end weights sourced from Moto International offered an instant and satisfactory fix. But my latest fix has all but totally eliminated the situation. I have poured melted lead [outside of course, nasty to breath] into the end of each handlebar, followed by installation of chrome Napolean Baren bar end mirrors.

As for the noise, well, I don't recall you mentioning if you have stock mufflers or not, or whether you have an aftermarket airbox. I find the aftermarket options for exhaust are sounding universally ok at low engine revs. Only when you rev them up, or on overrun, do they get a real boom. Or do you mean the mechanical noise of these? These things are clanky at idle, compared to the California series, as of the much lighter flywheel, allowing [or not preventing] the engine from very quickly accelerating and decelerating at [mostly] idle or slightly above. This is chinkling the gears together in the gearbox. Nothing to worry about.

With 30,000kms, I've done many 400mile/600km days with this thing, and an 850 mile run. It is a lopy engine with the right characteristic to thrum along all day. The thing is made for sport touring.

Ciao, Steve G.

Ciao, Steve G.

[Guest Nogbad]

I can definitely confirm that TB balance makes a HUGE difference to vibration and rideability. Get a Morgan Carbtune. Carbtune

 

Also, it seems to be true that as the bike beds in, it gets better, although I suspect there is some effect from you getting used to it. Mine seems smoother at 10K miles than it was at the 2K when I got it.

[velofish]

^^ What they said. Oh yeah, mine got noticeably smoother at about the 8k mile mark. 11k mile now and better with every ride.

 

fish

[dlaing]

. Get a Morgan Carbtune. Carbtune

57073[/snapback]

Or http://www.epfguzzi.com/twinmax.html

I like to stay away from the Mercury balancers, so the Carbtune or the Twinmax are the way to go.

I tried making a water manometer, but I think my water meter would have to be thirty feet tall for it to work. Of course other people have gotten water meters to work... <_ mine sucked water faster than i could rip the hoses off>

They'll have to show me one in action to make me a believer

But if you want to give it a try:

http://www.obairlann.net/~reaper/motorcycle/manometer.html

I'll stick to twinmax. You can even pack it for trips, and hang out at rallies balancing throttle bodies for people!

[txrider]

I second the suggestion on the Twin Max but be ready for it not being in stock. I ended up having a three week wait after the distributor said he had one left and it would ship the next day. As for the bars and seat I couldn't agree more other than I can handle 200 mile rides. More than that would be tough. I'm looking forward to what you try on the bars. MPH is a little pricey but considering the clutch and brake lines I guess that's to be expected.

On the exhaust noise, my bike had Staintunes on it when I got it and they're a nice balance of having just enough tone to be pleasing without being noise intrusive. That's with the stock crossover used. You might give a listen to those if there is a bike available.

As for your description of the riding experience I totally agree- it's the most fun bike I've ridden in years- kinda gets back to basic motorcycling with that big twin sound and torque.

Another note- I changed the grips to Oury Roads which are slightly larger in diameter with a blocked pattern. These made a great deal of difference in felt vibration and provide a slightly larger area to spread pressure on the hands.

[richard100t]

I just turned 6k miles on mine recently & its getting smoother & better mpg too. I just got 132 miles out of 3 gallons of gas. Have your bike tuned at a Guzzi dealer that has the computer hookup for it. I had mine sync'd by Speakers Cycles here in Ohio & wow! That made it like a new bike As for the exhaust, someones always wanting to offload their stock exhaust around here. Look in the classifieds section on this site & you may find a stock exhaust. Get the Maund seat & some gel grips, or foam & you'll be set. Btw I have also found the bike to be tiring after 125 or so miles, so thats normal. Stop at a gas station, fill it up, stretch out have a soda your good to go.

[Guest Bruce]

As you are probably aware the immediate fix is Advil, bicycle shorts, and well seated ear plugs. Anything that is loose, or can rub or 'flap' against something else may greatly increase your sense of vibration.

[Dr Gil]

Thanks for all these excellent suggestions.

 

I suspect a lot of the "vibration" problem is probably me. This is my first Guzzi and I’m coming to it after having ridden a triple for a number of years. All things are relative and “amount of vibration” is surely at the top of this list...and no ratchethack, sigh, I was not revving it high enough but am now but HATE traveling Interstates in 5th gear (oh my gas mileage! Must go FASTER) and still find the vibration "somewhat tiring."

 

The bike had 11K on the odometer (now pressing 13) when I got it so the engine should be well broken in. I suspect the bike has an aftermarket airbox on it (the original is in a "box o' parts" that came with the bike...and sadly I simply have not had the time to tear into things to see exactly what I have here...a winter project, for now, we ride!) and I know it has the aftermarket carbon fiber exhausts. I don't know if the fuel injection has been adjusted to compensate for these changes. I suspect the bike is running a bit lean what with the carbon buildup around the exhaust, slight smell of gasoline when the engine is cold and the occasional "hiccupping" backfire.

 

I'm interested in checking to see if the throttle bodies are in balance but hate spending the $90 or so necessary to buy the instruments do it (the costs for this "wow, I got an incredible bargain bike" are kicking it out of the "bargain" category...but understand I'm trying to bend the bike to my will, IMMEDIATELY). So, I've heard rumors once you balance the TB's you don't need to visit this again unless you change something dramatically with the engine. Is this true? Do I actually need to purchase these tools or can I simply go to a dealership, have the TB's balanced and walk away...after all, how much can they charge for such a simple task?

 

So, whatcha think? Do I actually NEED to buy the Carbtune/Twinmax's or just get someone to do the tuning for me?

[Guest ratchethack]

Gil, if, after taking a gander at Carl's procedure for balancing the TBs, which I linked in my post above, all of that techno stuff sounds more like painful gibberish than a pleasureable challenge and another variety of escape and release from the pressures of being a MD, I'd weigh this against the level of 2-way confidence you might be able to cultivate with your local dealer, and decide if you're going to be more of a hands-on Guzzisti with a deeper level of involvement with the machine, or if you're willing to pay the dealer to own that responsibility. Nothing wrong with either strategy, it's a simple choice. Yep, if you get the TBs balanced properly the first time you shouldn't have to think about it again for years, but that can be a big "IF", depending...

 

WRT your suspicion of an "aftermarket airbox", it sounds like you may have an open or "lidless" stock airbox. If your sensitivity to sound pressure is anything like mine, this may be the primary source of your irritation to the "excessively loud exhaust", just as it was with Yours Truly. I suggest dig into that box of stuff for something that looks vaguely like some kind of a Star Wars Bar Scene alien dual-trunk earless rectangular elephant head. This would be your airbox top. I'd get it back in place to evaluate what I would expect you'd discover would be a dramatic reduction in sound pressure level and a brand-new world of riding comfort. Many have no problems with "lidless", but I could not ride my bike without either my stock airbox or earplugs. I've run my airbox both ways, and it was a no-brainer for me. Keep in mind that like you, I run "LOUD" mufflers (FBF oval carbons).

 

If the mods you've indicated have not been compensated for by a custom or "off the shelf configured" PC III map or equivalent, I'd also check into this, or risk engine damage from over lean running (which, among other things, can include holing the pistons) The backfire pops on over-run is a symtom of lean running. I most strenuously recommend a PCIII from Todd Eagan and at minimum, an "off the shelf" (free) map matched to your config. I can personally attest to the high value of this - I consider it more important than any other single change you could make.

 

See http://www.guzzitech.com/PCIII.html

 

It's not the absolute level of vibration that's your enemy, Gil, but the perception thereof that's the culprit. Doesn't matter what level bothers you - If you don't stop it from bothering, you ain't gonna get the most enjoyment from yer Guzzi. Do you know if you have the 12-oz or 14-oz Throttlemeister bar-ends? If you have the former, you might try the latter, or in either case consider having lead poured into your bars, or lead shot with silicone seal. What I'm saying is that you needn't let this continue to be an irritation in any case. It all adds up, my friend.

 

If you've got 12K+ miles now, the engine may still not be fully broken in yet. Mine didn't "stabilize" in it's loosening-up and smoothing-out until somewhere up near 20K. This shouldn't deter you from going forward in any area I've mentioned.

 

Glad you've got the rev's up. Sounds like you're doin' great!

 

WRT "bargain bike" status - C'mon, Doc! Is it a "bargain" to ride around on a bike that you already know stirs your soul like no other, knowing that it wasn't expensive (relatively speaking) to begin with, also knowing that it's still 20% compromised, and that getting past the the worst of the compromises is so CHEAP?! If you have any self-control at all, the expenses needn't go on and on... There's a reasonable end within easy grasp. Again relatively speaking, these things may actually be credibly well-justified in terms of value-per mile.

 

All just suggestions and ideas, just one man's opinion, and as always, YMMV.

[dlaing]

Yep, if you get the TBs balanced properly the first time you shouldn't have to think about it again for years, but that can be a big "IF", depending... <_>

And as opinions vary...

I adjust the throttle bodies atleast twice as frequently as valves, and I do find that they need at least a half turn of the wheel after every valve adjustment.

Does a half turn make big difference to performance and vibration? Not really, but it does make some difference, and it gives me peace of mind.

If $90 is too much for a balancer, I recommend getting the cheaper mercury balancer from Motion Pro. It is easy to use and very accurate. Just be careful with the mercury. It could be very toxic to you and the environment.

Or maybe Ratchet is correct and balancing once will last well enough for years.

In any case don't sweat it.

If you have a friendlly mechanic, he should be able to do a quick balance for $10.

Doing the full balance procedure with TPS, and CO, is a whole 'nother story...and he or she may insist on the full monty or nothing at all.

Or ride down to San Diego and I'll do a quick balance for free!

I would not be surprised if someone you ride with has a twinmax or something else

[richard100t]

Thanks for all these excellent suggestions. 

 

I suspect a lot of the "vibration" problem is probably me.  This is my first Guzzi and I’m coming to it after having ridden a triple for a number of years.  All things are relative and “amount of vibration” is surely at the top of this list...and no ratchethack, sigh, I was not revving it high enough but am now but HATE traveling Interstates in 5th gear (oh my gas mileage!  Must go FASTER) and still find the vibration "somewhat tiring."

 

The bike had 11K on the odometer (now pressing 13) when I got it so the engine should be well broken in.  I suspect the bike has an aftermarket airbox on it (the original is in a "box o' parts" that came with the bike...and sadly I simply have not had the time to tear into things to see exactly what I have here...a winter project, for now, we ride!) and I know it has the aftermarket carbon fiber exhausts.  I don't know if the fuel injection has been adjusted to compensate for these changes.  I suspect the bike is running a bit lean what with the carbon buildup around the exhaust, slight smell of gasoline when the engine is cold and the occasional "hiccupping" backfire.

 

I'm interested in checking to see if the throttle bodies are in balance but hate spending the $90 or so necessary to buy the instruments do it (the costs for this "wow, I got an incredible bargain bike" are kicking it out of the "bargain" category...but understand I'm trying to bend the bike to my will, IMMEDIATELY).  So, I've heard rumors once you balance the TB's you don't need to visit this again unless you change something dramatically with the engine.  Is this true?  Do I actually need to purchase these tools or can I simply go to a dealership, have the TB's balanced and walk away...after all, how much can they charge for such a simple task? 

 

So, whatcha think?  Do I actually NEED to buy the Carbtune/Twinmax's or just get someone to do the tuning for me?

57161[/snapback]

I took mine to a guzzi dealer for the tuning & I loved the results. The cost for me was $30. Your in Cali so expect to pay $100 lol....its still worth it, you wont have to bother with it again for a year at least. (for the tuning that is) Its a good idea in general to have a Guzzi pro look at it until you spend more time in here & decide what your comfortable with working on.