Guest Nogbad Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 Out of interest, this months edition of Classic Bike magazine has a reasonable write up of the 1100 Breva. Guy 59032[/snapback] OMG Classic Bike is an old geezer's magazine. If the Breva is in there it says something about it! They normally only test retro reproduction classics or rebuilt and original classics.
Guzzirider Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 OMG Classic Bike is an old geezer's magazine. If the Breva is in there it says something about it! They normally only test retro reproduction classics or rebuilt and original classics. 59034[/snapback] They now have a new section for modern classics- and I don't mind being called an old geezer even though I am 38- I like old geezer bikes! Guy
Guest Nogbad Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 They now have a new section for modern classics- and I don't mind being called an old geezer even though I am 38- I like old geezer bikes! Guy 59037[/snapback] Hah! At 45 I'm more of a Geezer than you you young whippersnapper!
tikkanen Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 Hah! At 45 I'm more of a Geezer than you you young whippersnapper! 59041[/snapback] My old las' (she's 42) is really keen on buying the Breva 1100. Guess that makes me a semi old fart... (also 42) Søren
orangeokie Posted August 31, 2005 Author Posted August 31, 2005 OMG Classic Bike is an old geezer's magazine. If the Breva is in there it says something about it! They normally only test retro reproduction classics or rebuilt and original classics. 59034[/snapback] 52 qualifies as geezerdom.
Skeeve Posted September 1, 2005 Posted September 1, 2005 Also, many years ago I test rode a cheap used 350cc trail styled Guzzi. Never seen another, and I wish I could remember what it was, I didn't buy it, but wished I had for a while afterwards. It had square barrels like a V50, but long travel enduro forks. 58908[/snapback] Guzzi also made one of these in the full 750 size for Italian police; why they never offered it for commercial sale is beyond me! Maybe 'cause it would have cannibalized Quota sales? [big whoop; selling 2x as many small blocks adv. tourers as the Quota should have been an accounting no-brainer! ] Go figure...
Skeeve Posted September 1, 2005 Posted September 1, 2005 There were a number of reasons not only for it's demise but also for it's enormously long gestation period. Originally it was supposed to be ready in the late eighties but one of the biggest problems they had was with heat cracking the heads. ... Hi Cams are still prone to cracking heads though! The greatest reason for it's demise is cost. The Hi Cam costs about $2,200 more per unit than the old pushrod lump. It's also heavier, more complex and produces little more power, (although it delivers it in a completely different way.) The smallblock Lario and it's sibblings used a pushrod 4V head. Apart from reliability problems using pushrods and OHV operation negates one of the great benefits of using a multi valve format, that of greatly reduced valve train weight. The Hi-Cam is a wonderful thing, if you like that sort of thing, but it was, even at the time of it's inception, a dinosaur, an evolutionary dead-end. Overtaken and left behind before it ever made it to the street it remains, in my opinion, the last, great, stand of the 'Biggus Dickus', hairy-chested, air cooled motorbike engine.... They're fantastic, but they're gone, and we will, I'm afraid, never see their like again, (To parraphrase Flan O'Brien.) Pete 58920[/snapback] Thanks for the insight, Pete! Just to add some points for those who haven't read Greg Field's book, the Hi-Cam was literally a race-development engine that along with the spine frame was kind of a a factory-backed attempt to keep Dr. John's race efforts competitive without Guzzi having to spend a lot of money on an official racing division. As such, it really was just a "bolt up" affair based upon the standard bottom-end: by using much shorter push rods and 4v heads, the engine could rev higher and still breathe when it got there. It doesn't surprise me that the HiCam engine cost that much more than the regular 2v engines, given the duplication of parts caused by having 2 of everything in the heads instead of one of everything nestled in the vee in the top of the block. It's an economy of scale thing: if Guzzi had (would?) standardize on the 4v head and *all* production came with it, the unit costs for the added complexity would come down [but obviously, would never be as cheap as the 2v componentry.] What's weird is that Guzzi probably could have saved more money in the long run by going the full DOHC route, using the belt drive to the inboard cams in each head & then driving the outboard mate by chain or gear. Properly designed, the cams might have all been the same unit, w/ just the appropriate gearing bolted up. Here comes that "economies of scale" thing again! Despite your criticism of using a 4v design with the long pushrods, it *would* confer several benefits to the current design: a better combustion chamber shape [pentroof] for a whole host of benes [higher compression = more power, yet w/ greater resistance to pinging], better breathing [= more power & better comparisons "by the specs"], and of course, there's the BIG SQUARE HEAD cool factor... It's really too bad that Jim Feuling died too soon; he made 4v heads for the Sposta that worked, maybe he could have made some for the Guzzi if he was still with us? As for why Guzzi hasn't gone this route: heck, considering how badly they got scalded with their experience trying it on the small-blocks, I'm certain they'll never attempt it on the big-blocks, regardless of possible advantages! As you say; it was already an anachronism by the time it actually hit the streets & we'll never see the like again. Sure was fun while it lasted, tho'!
helicopterjim R.I.P. Posted September 1, 2005 Posted September 1, 2005 Some other factors that brought about the demise of the short pushrod 4V are that it is mechanically very noisy and caused problems with meeting noise limitations and also it would not meet the European or Californian environmental limits. Hence it met a dead end in development for those reasons alone. Short of watercooling it would never make it past those two hurdles and watercooling meant mostly a whole new engine .
Skeeve Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 ...Short of watercooling it would never make it past those two hurdles and watercooling meant mostly a whole new engine . 59154[/snapback] Why do people keep saying this? The only thing the really *requires* cooling are the heads. From what Pete's said, Guzzi blocks still have the mounting bosses for the Convert's tranny pump; use those to drive a water pump, tuck a radiator in a fairing, add a fan & a thermistor, bada-bing bada-boom, & Bob's yer uncle! Why, why, why do people insist on always making things harder than they need to be? Thanks for the 1st hand observations on the noise factor, Helo: I never thought about the effects moving the cams closer to the outside world & doubling the tappets, etc. would have on the engine noise! Water cooled heads are good for *that* problem too, since the water jacket tends to muffle a lot of that hullabaloo...
helicopterjim R.I.P. Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 I would like to get a quality sound clip of my MGS. When you stand near the front of the bike it makes almost as much mechanical clatter as my Ducati Monsters dry clutch with the cut-away cover!! The Centauro is similar but somewhat subdued. Perhaps the carbon belt drive covers on the MGS let out more noise.
pete roper Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 The 'Belt Rattle' can be quite extreme. I dunno what causes it exactly but certainly 'C' kitted bikes tend to rattle more so I suppose it's something to do with the loads imposed by the cams on the belts and gears. Given the MGS is in a pretty high state of tune I'd guess it would be noisy as all getout. Does the MGS Use the 'C' kit or are the cams a new part/profile? Pete
Paul Minnaert Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 Pete, mgs cams have differnt order number from c kit. mgs cams: intake valve opens 36° BTDC intake valve closes 70° ABDC exhaust valve opens 64° BBDC exhaust valve closes 28° ATDC daytona RS c kit ouverture 22°30' avant le PMH. fermeture 69°30' après le PMB. Echappement: ouverture 63°30' avant le PMB. fermeture 28°30' après le le PMH. I heard the mgs in Assen, I found it quiet running mechanicaly. They put a chain in for distribution, thats more quiet.
antonio carroccio Posted September 3, 2005 Posted September 3, 2005 the newest Griso... on the autostrada Milano-Venezia There is some true sospect that this Griso will be on pruduction and spring 2006 in the showrooms all over the world. More news about it at GMG Mandello del Lario 15-16-17 sept 2005 http://www.motociclismo.it/edisport/moto/N...BB?OpenDocument
antonio carroccio Posted September 4, 2005 Posted September 4, 2005 It seems official... 4) GIOVEDI' 8 SETTEMBRE: - MILANO: Presentazione alla stampa della nuova Moto Guzzi Griso 1.100, con presidente del gruppo Piaggio Roberto Colaninno (Triennale Palazzo dell'Arte, ore 11.00)
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