I know this is a stupid request....

[mikethebike]

Those of you who followed my ramblings a few weeks ago on my timing cover oil leak saga will recall that no sooner than I’d finished the job that I spotted a leak from the bevel drive. I put up with a slight seep for several hundred miles until today when I felt some play in the bevel drive. In fact I can wiggle it back and fore about a couple of millimetres top and bottom and a very small gap has appeared between bevel drive and swing arm.

The rear wheel spindle nut is still tight. Looks like a bearing has given up the ghost.

As I’ve mopped up the seep (only a drip or so) every 30 odd miles I’m certain that the play was not there until now. Would any kind person who reads this try to wiggle their bevel drive and confirm that play should not be there before I strip the back end apart. (I know it shouldn’t be but doubts creep in when you’re desperate)

Also, I’m confused about the rear spindle nut tightening torque. The owner’s manual and the workshop manual (in the list of torque values) both say that this should be 120Nm, but the shop manual also has a picture that says it’s 28/30Nm which seems far too low and must be a typo. Why must they confuse us so? I’ve always used 120.

Also, has anyone stripped a bevel drive without using the special tools mentioned in the manual? Don't want to wreck anything by battering hell out of it with a hammer and drift.

She's a 2002 V11 Sport.

Still love her though.

[Guest Nogbad]

According to my V11 owners book the rear spindle torque is 12kg/m or 120 Nm as near as dammit. (The exact conversion is 117.6 Nm)

 

As the bevel box has to rotate relative to the swingarm it isn't clamped up tight, but floats between the wheel and swingarm. The stack of components:

 

LHS wheel bearing / long spacer / RHS wheel bearing / short spacer / bevel drive assembly / needle inner race is clamped tight by the axle bolt and defines all the distances.

 

On my bike there is a fraction of end play between the bevel drive and swingarm. Most of this is taken up by the floating washer which just helps to keep dirt out of the needle race.

 

If you can feel perceptible "wobble" in the bevel box relative to the wheel, AND it is leaking, it probably merits further investigation.

 

Mine has almost imperceptible "end float" but NO sign of angular wobble relative to the plane of the wheel.

[pete roper]

Sorry, can you just confirm this? The bevelbox is moving in relation to the swingarm? You're not talking about play in the pinion in relation to the box?

 

I did a write up a while back about stripping V11 bevelboxes, it may still be around somewhere up the list. To me it sounds as if the needle roller in the outside of the box that the box can move on the spindle on may of given up the ghost. I'm not sure if you beed to strip the box to replace that or not????

 

Pete

[jrt]

The 28/30 Nm IS a typo- I got suckered with it also.

 

Two threads by pete roper will be of interest to you:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2384

and a much longer and interesting description of the bevelbox:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2391

 

I think you will need a couple of tools.

 

EDIT- the posts linked above are the ones pete references. lots of people posting here all at once!

[mikethebike]

Thanks for that guys.

The complete bevel box is moving relative to the wheel/swing arm and from pete roper's (and Colin's) excellent stripdown pics it looks like the outer needle roller could be the culprit. I will attack it first - it may be possible to extract it without major surgery. The seal might be a different matter though, but with the whole thing running true maybe the seal will seal again.

ever hopeful....

[pete roper]

The thing to remmember is that unless you feel there is something wrong with the pinion bearing preload you don't have to remove it to get to the inner needle roller, the inner seal or the outer needle roller. Just leave it in place and work around it. I can't remember, (or see from the pics!) whether the needle roller is extracted from the inside or the outside of the box. If it's from the outside though there is no need to disassemble the box at all.

 

DO remember that when the bevelbox is re-installed it is VITAL that the two UJ trunnions at either end of the driveshaft be aligned with each other. If they are out by even one tooth it will do serious damage to expensive stuff, will prevent the suspension from working properly and when it fails can do so dangerously!

 

Pete

[mikethebike]

Received new outboard needle roller bearing and spacer (inner race) – next day delivery from the good folk at Motomecca – at a cost of £34. Note these are sold as two separate parts. Also got an oil seal (only £2) and a cover o-ring seal (£1).

Stripped off bevel box and yes the needle roller was well and truly goosed.

Needle bearing is a very tight fit in casing (fitted from the outside) and will need some fancy extractor tool to remove it…..unless of course I try my usual cunning and a bit of brute force to drift it out. So off with the cover/crown wheel assembly to get better access – this came off relatively easily – remove the 8 very tight loctited (why???) bolts and apply a little leverage with a couple of tyre levers.

The bearing outer race has folded over ends which retain sealing rubbers and which would provide an edge for a small diameter drift. Prised out the cage and seals to get at the flange and gave it a good whack – only to knock off a piece of aforementioned flange.

Had a fag and considered the options –

special puller – obvious choice but don’t have one

heat up casing in oven – fill kitchen with delightful aroma of hot gear oil, possibly wreck seals, spoil cakes and pies for weeks to come

heat casing with blow torch – burn off casing paint and possibly damage oil seal

attack bearing with small grinding tool and collapse it inwards – successfully did this before on a car gearbox

take bevel box to nearest dealer - 80 miles away but I'm not beaten yet

have some beer and go to bed and sleep on it – sounds like best idea

 

The next problem is the swing arm side oil seal which is located below the large needle roller bearing which I would not attempt to shift without a special extractor which of course I don’t have.

Tomorrow’s another day.

More beer please.

[pete roper]

Unless the esign has changed drastically in this respect, (And I don't think it has but I'm going from memory.) the outer race of the needle roller sits on a brass ring just inboard of the smaller *outer* oilseal. Sometimes the outer race will simply pull out with your fingers butif it won't you can use a small puller braced against either the wheel spacer in the box or a socket poked through the seal so it bears on the box and hooked under the brass ring.

 

While I can't remember precisely the set-up I'm pretty sure the needle roller and it's installation and co-parts are still common with the earlier boxes.

 

Rather than tyring to biff the outer bearing out how about getting a piece of bar or a soket or some such that will just sit on the edge of it and try pressing it out. There must be workshop nearby with a press?????

 

Pete

[belfastguzzi]

There are a whole raft of threads about the bevelbox and the needle roller bearing, including methods of extraction. A search throws up the following, for starters. The more recent ones include info on needle roller experiences. Some of the threads might be a few pages long, but the info on extraction is in there somewhere. Also prices for cheap purchase at bearing factors.

 

I fitted a ring without the drilled hole, thinking the solid ring might help keep water from ingressing. I now think that it's more important to seal the box/swingarm interface from the outside (though JRT has a perverse theory about the goodness of rust: acting as a form of loctite and being necessary to hold the axle in – for safety's sake).

 

Look here:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5537&hl=

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4933&hl=

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4979&hl=

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4923&hl=

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2441&hl=

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2391&hl=

[mikethebike]

Set to work with a Dremel and small grinder and cut a slot in the outer race which then lifted out easily – excellent. New bearing was obviously going to be a tight fit so I heated the bevel box bearing bore with a blow torch and the new race drifted in – again easily. There is no shoulder in this bore to set the position of the bearing so I used the large outer washer to set the bearing flush with the recessed face the washer sits in. So far so good.

Next came the matter of the oil seal. This is fitted below the large expensive looking needle roller. Much examination and measuring of the parts showed that the old seal sealing diameter was 36.9mm. New seal is 36.4mm. Shaft is 38.0mm. The old seal surface looked OK – no nicks or rough areas so I concluded that the old seal is a wee bit worn but should still seal. But since I had the whole thing apart (and there was a leak after all ) I decided to attempt removal of needle roller. There is a small land of the outer race accessible between bearing and seal to get a puller onto to haul it out.

Heated the casing, but not too much for fear of melting the seal and leaving me totally stuck if I couldn’t shift the bearing which in the end proved to be way too tight for my home-made puller. More heat and a much more sturdy puller is required. Having measured all the parts I know what is needed and have a good design in mind to make one if I can’t locate a suitable ready-made puller.

Needing the bike back on the road I decided to put it all back together and leave the seal for another day – next new rear tyre fitting time. The seal should hold out til then.

The oil level plug hole is about level with the lowest point of the seal sealing diameter so if I don’t overfill the box that should help. (Confession time – I think I did overfill it last oil change)

A good dod of grease was applied all around the washer/spacer/bearing/inner race/swing arm to try to keep water out. This will be regular maintenance task from now on.

 

Anyway – new needle roller fitted, bevelbox wobble cured.

Old bearing part number – Torrington HK 2516 2RS

New bearing part number – NTN (japan) HK 2516 LL

If there’s a next time I’ll check out if a bearing factor can supply it cheaper than the £34 I paid.

 

25 mile test run – no leak. (so far, fingers crossed, touch wood, etc)

Celebratory beer called for.

Thanks again chaps for the help and support.

It’s good to know you’re not alone.

[pete roper]

Top stuff. Glad it worked out!

 

Pete

[Admin Jaap]

New bearing part number – NTN (japan) HK 2516 LL

If there’s a next time I’ll check out if a bearing factor can supply it cheaper than the £34 I paid.

I can get the same item from INA for € 5,13 w/o VAT...

[belfastguzzi]

I can get the same item from INA for € 5,13 w/o VAT...

59435[/snapback]

 

Or £2 from a UK bearing Factor

...I said a Factor would be cheaper

 

As mentioned somewhere in the previous threads, the ring is actually more expensive than the bearing for some reason, but still, both parts together are still a lot cheaper than Guzzi's £34!

 

HK 2516 £2

ring £5.40

 

+ vat = £8.69

 

Nog's bearing site looks even cheaper – for the 6204 anyway: I don't see a 2516