Missed UP and DOWN shifts

[belfastguzzi]

pile of parts - engine in frame sitting on shop stand.  Began early summer when I decided to strip down to transmission to fix transmission seal leak (AGAIN).  Also needed rear tire.  Should have been a weekend project.  took all weekend just to get rear axle out.  Everything rusted and seized together.  No grease anywhere.  Got worse from there.  All bearings fubar - wheels, drive, headstock.  Not a lick of grease from factory.  I almost never ride in the rain - bike kept secure and dry.

Rj

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It's unfortunate, but this re-affirms why owner maintenance can be a better way to go than dealer maintenance. If things are checked and tackled from the start, there's a good chance of avoiding bigger issues arising a few years down the line.

 

We're talking basic stuff like greasing and lubrication, waterproofing, tightening and adjusting. Doing something yourself, even taking a wheel out, gives additional opportunities for looking around and improving things. Most dealer workshops, understandably, won't do this – they'll go straight to the one job and that's it. Worse, in my experience stuff can be reassembled wrongly and carelessly by garage 'mechanics'.

Waxing that sort of stuff doesn't do much good in the long run!

 

PS bad luck Ryan, but you'll get it going ?

Sometimes when things are stripped and momentum is lost, it can be really hard to pick-up again. The good thing is that it's only a motorbike, so there are a limited number of parts to sort out. Hmm. Not very convincing, eh?

[Guest Nogbad]

I've found copying Belfast's maintenance regimen quite successful. If I see he is doing something, I get out there and do it too. He lives in a place with the worst climate for biking there is. Cold, wet and permanently salty. If his Guzzi is surviving, the V11 can't be that bad.

 

What are you stripping at the moment mate? I haven't been riding my bike much recently as I acquired a new wife and have been riding that instead.

[belfastguzzi]

I've found copying Belfast's maintenance regimen quite successful.

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Ha. didn't I tell you? I've been stuffing all the wasted space in the tubes with firelighters, waxing the supercharger and drying out the sump.

[Guest Nogbad]

Ha. didn't I tell you? I've been stuffing all the wasted space in the tubes with firelighters, waxing the supercharger and drying out the sump.

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Damn. You really have a duty to keep us better informed......

[badmotogoozer]

Thanks for the words of encouragement guys! I left her in the hands of the dealer for the warranty period - didn't want to void it... I can't believe they took it all apart for the trans recall and put it back together again without any grease. And the trans seal is leaking again - I"LL be fixing it proper this time!!

 

I'll be taking control of her from now on, and once sorted won't be a problem anymore... I'm just a little miffed that I have to do all this at a mere 12K klicks.

 

Rj

[Guest thmpr]

OK! I have the transmission inspection cover off right now. In the bottom of the transmission lays a roll pin. The only place I can find this roll pin goes is in the gear selector cover. The roll pin's existance is a mystery. Looks as if it may be a motion limiter for the gear change paule - so the paule will not fling away from the shift gears too far - although the trans case looks like it would do the same thing. Do I need this roll pin? Pound it back into the cover plate so it may eventually fall out again?

 

Other than the loose roll pin, there was no excessive grunge or metal filings, no abused or broken parts, bent or misaligned forks or anything that I could see.

 

I believe the problem lies in the shifter mechanism - as if there is not enough resistance or spring pressure on the locating roller to prevent overshifting and misalignment of the shift forks. All springs are proper - just that shifting the linkage by hand seems too easy and I watch the two shift gears kind of bounce back and forth before the locating roller finds its detent.

 

For the life of the bike, sometimes the shift lever would "hang" - just a quick pop of the clutch would bounce the lever back to its cental location - again seems like the detent roller not forcing things hard enough.

 

Now what?

 

Can easily see why Redline Heavy gear oil is recommended.

 

Glenn

thmpr

[Guest Nogbad]

Sometimes my lever sticks down on downshifts until the clutch is re-engaged, I just put it down to character. I don't get missed shifting though.

[belfastguzzi]

OK!  I have the transmission inspection cover off right now.  In the bottom of the transmission lays a roll pin.  The only place I can find this roll pin goes is in the gear selector cover.  The roll pin's existance is a mystery.  Looks as if it may be a motion limiter for the gear change paule - so the paule will not fling away from the shift gears too far - although the trans case looks like it would do the same thing.  Do I need this roll pin?  Pound it back into the cover plate so it may eventually fall out again?

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Is that it at the top middle of this photo, middle of the arm? Does your cover have an empty hole there?

 

Surely you should put it back, or put a new one back. Why did it come out? Is it a loose fit? Does any of the protruding part fit into a hole in the main box? Or is it just a protruding 'limiter'? I can't remember about this. Could it have dropped out when you took the cover off, or do you think it was lieing in theire since last time?

[Guest thmpr]

Is that it at the top middle of this photo, middle of the arm? Does your cover have an empty hole there?

 

Surely you should put it back, or put a new one back. Why did it come out? Is it a loose fit? Does any of the protruding part fit into a hole in the main box? Or is it just a protruding 'limiter'? I can't remember about this. Could it have dropped out when you took the cover off, or do you think it was lieing in theire since last time?

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Yes - this is the roll pin. It does not engage anything on the main box, but appears to be a limiter to the shift arm - although through very close examination it does not seem to limit anything. The roll pin can be hammered back in - the hole in the case is tapered. The roll pin was found in the bottom of the tranny - had been there a while. Thankfully the 90 wt oil kept it from finding its way into the gears.

 

Read the next post about the roller detent ring. A real eyeopener.

 

thmpr

[Guest thmpr]

OK - studied the linkage and found a possible DESIGN FLAW. Here is a theory why the shifter hangs, gear changes are missed or sometimes doubled and false neutrals are available between any gear.

 

There is NOTHING in the shift linkage to accurately FORCE the next gear selection. The springed roller that is supposed to fall into a detent and locate the shift gear rides on a NON-RAMPED surface - and can easily rest between detents - not forcing the gear to go one direction or the other. It'll just sit there until nudged again by shift lever input. That detent ring should have been ramped to each detent with a crest exactly 1/2 way between each detent. That way, the pressure from the spring roller would force the shift gear either into the next gear - or back to the existing gear if not prodded hard enough to make it over the ramp's crest. I'm not talking about a huge ramp - just something the roller's spring tension can move the gear with.

 

Currently, the sringed roller can easily fly across the next gear's detent and come to rest anywhere it wants on the non-ramped detent ring. So, the next nudge of the shift lever gets the next available gear - an unwanted double shift. Both upshifts and downshifts are affected. With a pliers as a shift lever, I can easily get the roller to rest 1/2 between gear selectons and also shift fast and get the roller to jump 2 gears. That detent ring should have been ramped.

 

So - should I remove the detent ring and grind some ramps into it? Using a heavy lube will definitely make this shift mechanism work better.

 

thmpr

[belfastguzzi]

OK - studied the linkage and found a possible DESIGN FLAW.  Here is a theory why the shifter hangs, gear changes are missed or sometimes doubled and false neutrals are available between any gear.

 

There is NOTHING in the shift linkage to accurately FORCE the next gear selection.  The springed roller that is supposed to fall into a detent and locate the shift gear rides on a NON-RAMPED surface - and can easily rest between detents - not forcing the gear to go one direction or the other. 

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Yes noticed that, but

_ could you make enough of a ramp and is there enough spring pressure for that mod to really work?

_ are there other mechanisms like this, that use the douple-ended ramp idea?

_ making it jump with pliers is one thing, but when the box is all back together and running, will it still jump gears so easily?

 

I don't find the box jumping through gears like that, in practice. Any observations about why some might do it more than others?

[Guest thmpr]

My box was jumping gears both up and down very easy - like every other shift. I'd first find a false neutral (spring roller jumping over detent and resting on non-ramped surface), tap the lever again and be in the next-next gear. Then, began shifting very gently to find only false neutrals between the gears (spring roller never making it to the next detent). I do think the simplest solution right now is using Redline Shockproof Heavy - anything to slow down this linkage. Hopefully, once reassembled, the gooey shift forks will also help stop the gear jumping. I truly think the wrong lube was in the tranny after the recall fix from the dealer.

 

I do not think I could modify the existing detent ring with ramps. Guzzi should make a larger detent ring with ramps and maybe up the spring pressure to match the roller's new task.

 

thmpr

[bigbikerrick]

My box was jumping gears both up and down very easy - like every other shift.  I'd first find a false neutral (spring roller jumping over detent and resting on non-ramped surface), tap the lever again and be in the next-next gear.  Then, began shifting very gently to find only false neutrals between the gears (spring roller never making it to the next detent).  I do think the simplest solution right now is using Redline Shockproof Heavy - anything to slow down this linkage.  Hopefully, once reassembled, the gooey shift forks will also help stop the gear jumping.  I truly think the wrong lube was in the tranny after the recall fix from the dealer.

 

I do not think I could modify the existing detent ring with ramps.  Guzzi should make a larger detent ring with ramps and maybe up the spring pressure to match the roller's new task.

 

thmpr

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Hey Glenn, If I were you I would not only switch to RL , SPHeavy, but also replace the existing Guzzi springs with the ones made by cannon racecrafters. I got one from them for my 02 v 11 naked,and had it in 2 days, less than 20 bux shipped from oklahoma. I havent installed it yet, but its stronger than the Guzzi spring. Im not sure if they make all 3 springs, but they do make the one that is known to break. you might as well change it since you have it apart. BTW, how is that magni sfida treating you??

[dlaing]

Currently, the sringed roller can easily fly across the next gear's detent and come to rest anywhere it wants on the non-ramped detent ring.

62966[/snapback]

Do you mean it comes to rest in the inner ring?

I think fork ends are supposed to stay in the outer rings.

Perhaps this diagram helps:

Fork 3 is for first gear

Fork 4 is for second gear

Fork 5 is for third and fifth gear

Fork 6 is for fourth and sixth gear

Modifying ramps sounds like a bad idea, but if you know what you are doing, go for it. Modifying ramps is way over my head.

[Guest thmpr]

Hey Glenn, If I were you I would not only switch to RL , SPHeavy, but also replace the existing Guzzi springs with the ones made by cannon racecrafters. I got one from them for my 02 v 11 naked,and had it in 2 days, less than 20 bux shipped from oklahoma. I havent installed it yet, but its stronger than the Guzzi spring. Im not sure if they make all 3 springs, but they do make the one that  is known to break. you might as well change it since you have it apart. BTW, how is that magni sfida treating you??

62990[/snapback]

 

I can't find any information on Cannon Racecrafters. Do you have a link or contact?

 

The Magni is ... magnificent Unfortunately, it is down until I relocate the license plate to a side mount. I recently installed an Ohlins rear shock with softer spring so now the rear suspension actually moves up and down - but tire hit the license plate holder and gouged the rear tire. That bike is a monster! have over 20,000 miles on it now - actually tour with it as long as there is someone to help me unfold off it after 400 miles.

 

Glenn

thmpr