No more V11 LeMans ???

[dangerous]

E X A C T L Y

 

 

KB

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Well this thread has been very interesting, and since my 1st post I have learnt a bit on the V11 to..... and I have changed my mind re: last real Guzzi

[belfastguzzi]

 

that is an Sdkfz 250.

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Cor! What's the 1100 like?

[belfastguzzi]

My V11 is definetly half arsed.

 

So am I,most of the time.

 

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In combination, then, you're a

complete a*se!

Perfect.

[belfastguzzi]

Well this thread has been very interesting, and since my 1st post I have learnt a bit on the V11 to..... and I have changed my mind re: last real Guzzi 

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Despite the quite correct views put forward, I think there is still merit in the opinion that the V.11 is the last 'real' proper motorbike from Guzzi – unless some surprises come along. That's not the same as saying that the V.11 is perfect, or that it is a very well executed design – not at all. There's more to motorbike than that. Further reasons are given elsewhere, probably in the Breva bashing thread amonst others.

[belfastguzzi]

Of course, I could be wrong.

[big J]

Cor! What's the 1100 like?

65794[/snapback]

 

[Daniel Kalal]

...last real Guzzi...

 

Interesting.

 

Back when I became convinced that I had to have a Guzzi, it wasn't hard to find people who felt that the last real Guzzi was the bacon-slicer Falcone. That slow-turning single was a classic design that had seen many international race wins, and was available over many years. The V-twin wasn't entirely accepted as being true to Guzzi's heritage.

 

After the Daytona was introduced, and then the 2-valve version of the same spine-frame motorcycle in the form of the Sport, there were many people who were upset that Guzzi brought back the long-respected name "Lemans" and put it on these new bikes with the weird frame. This wasn't a "real" Lemans.

 

The Lemans name may be out of action for now, but it's certain that the name will be back on a new motorcycle. And, it will still be a real Guzzi.

[belfastguzzi]

...last real Guzzi...

And, it will still be a real Guzzi.

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It might be more of a real Piaggio?

 

But – there are two different tracks here. One is the 'real Guzzi' notion. The other is about: is the new real Guzzi still a real proper motorbike, in the way that the V.11, despite its shortcomings, is (according to some)? It's like:

the C21st Freelander is a real Land Rover, but is it a real proper motor in the way that the real proper pre-electronics Land Rovers were/are? The old Land Rovers have many deficiencies, like the V.11, but in so many ways they are more 'the perfect vehicle' than even a modern top-of the range Range Rover is.

[Baldini]

So....

 

In what ways is the V11 a more "real/proper" motorcycle than say the Breva or the Griso or whatever comes next?

 

KB

[Guzzirider]

To me, they are all real Guzzis- lets be honest a Breva or a Griso is not a million miles away from a V11, an 1100 Sport or even a Mark One Le Mans- all air cooled, shaft drive, V twins.

 

Ok the details and frames are different but they are all made in Mandello.

 

I love 'em all in their own way.

 

I am and always will be a Guzzi pervert.

 

Guy

[belfastguzzi]

So....

 

In what ways is the V11 a more "real/proper" motorcycle than say the Breva or the Griso or whatever comes next?

 

KB

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Not in every way, but in some ways that I think are important.

Partly explained here.

It's only a personal, particular viewpoint, not scientific and not 'correct'. The Griso looks like it is just a touch too artificially enhanced. The design is notched up a click too far. It's not entirely fair to judge from photos though. It is potentialy longer lasting than the Breva's look/design.

 

I just think that machines get to the point where a combination of becoming too designed, too technically complex, too expensive means that they are comfortably functional, as long as they work; are beautiful, until they swiftly fade from transient fashion; are economical, until they have to be scrapped and more made and purchased; are fit for purpose, until you want them to be a bit more flexible and fulfil a few more purposes than just one.

 

Modern cars blah blah blah... I know what I mean, but it will take all night to explain, so I'll not.

 

It's screwdrivers versus pozidrives.

 

PS

the last real/proper means of home music reproduction

Linn Sondek LP 12

[docc]

Is it too weird that it takes very little for "proper' to read "p.roper?"

[Baldini]

...The design is notched up a click too far....etc...

 

Belfast, I think I know what you mean.... I figure the quality of a design can be judged by how it's form follows it's function. For me, the purest design is entirely functional - nothing just as decoration, everything does a job...& everything complements everything else in the design. Not to say that things can't be styled eg: you have to have an engine/frame/seat etc, so make it pretty - but above all make it work. Nothing is there when something else could do the job simpler & better. A good example: Phil Irving's Vincent Rapide. Or compare Tamburini's 916 with the rehashed SS's Terblanche turns out. The early Tonti's pretty much fit too, but the Breva less so - as you say - overdesigned...fashion concious. 5.5" rims? no way needed - but a fashion requirement...or those strange redundant little chromed inserts by the s/a pivot (? what do they do?).... The V11 is just a nicely styled bodge cos the factory were bust but had to have new product.

 

Not sure that you can equate the V11 with the Cobra either, Docc. V11 just ain't that good! The Cobra, more like the Tontis is a classic design - because it is rigorously true to itself. I think any creative process can be judged the same way.

 

But as to "real/not real" motorcycles - well that's just bollocks isn't it? And same with "sport/not sport" motorcycles - a bike is a sport bike if it's ridden that way - & the V11 can be. Although like Goffredo I can't quite see the LeMans tag fits the V11 - anymore than the Bonneville name fits the overweight pastiche it's been attached to. Cashing in on heritage I guess...

 

KB

[Admin Jaap]

It's screwdrivers versus pozidrives.

You mean poserdrives

[Guest goffredo]

And, it will still be a real Guzzi.

65807[/snapback]

It might be more of a real Piaggio?

 

But – there are two different tracks here. One is the 'real Guzzi' notion. The other is about: is the new real Guzzi still a real proper motorbike, in the way that the V.11, despite its shortcomings, is (according to some)? It's like:

the C21st Freelander is a real Land Rover, but is it a real proper motor in the way that the real proper pre-electronics Land Rovers were/are? The old Land Rovers have many deficiencies, like the V.11, but in so many ways they are more 'the perfect vehicle' than even a modern top-of the range Range Rover is.

65893[/snapback]

 

 

Well, just some food for thought: the V11 was conceived when Guzzi was property of a group of US investors. In my opinions all of them, Tamaric Group, Rowan Group people and MOST OF ALL those sharks of Texas Pacific Group and all of those people who had in mind only their interests in some fund in teh Cayman Islands where among the worst managers for Guzzi. Regarding the bike, the management did not believe in the V11 at first. Marabese advanced the money to have it on dispay at Milan Show... Then the project stalled as the factory was almost bankrupt, with workers fired or left at home, strikes, etc.. Then it was eventually brought into production in a hurry, not even properly tested. The bike did not follow the guidelines of the designer (budget cuts force them to adapt an exhisting frame, cheap modifications to rear fork other stuff...). The rest is history.

 

On the other side we have the new Griso: a bike designed by the very same people who invented the V11, but this time with proper funding and real testing! With a frame tested in the most advanced centre in Europe (even BMW go testing in Noale and Pontedera!). And the results are there to prove it.

 

A bike cannot be more a proper real Guzzi than the Griso: the design reveal the mechanics, it is similar to no other bike, it does not follow any last minute fashion. It is beautiful, made at 57, Via Emanuele Vittorio Parodi, in Mandello by Moto Guzzi SpA, now an independent ITALIAN company, owned by IMMSI (the financial arm of Piaggio, a rather good ITALIAN company, I' d dare to say).

It is a real Moto Guzzi and surely not the "last one".

 

That someone might look with nostalgia at how Guzzi motorcycles were made when Guzzi was owned by TPG is something that I just cannot explain.

 

G.

PS: Ok, i concede that I might have done without a Showa fork, that's true...