Lemon Law?

[Guest Buck]

Recently I got my '02 Le Mans back from the shop after 3 months. It was in for a speedometer replacement, a fairing replacement (paint issues), a side panel replacement, and some other very minor things.

 

Since then I put on some Tommaselli clip-ons, and the Evoluzione peg relocation kit. The bike is more comfortable than ever, and I really think it's the most fun bike I've ever ridden. I finally have it set up to fit ME! But unfortunately today it stranded me for a while. I think I fell victim to the tank suck problem. After sitting about 30 minutes in the sun (about 70 degrees outside) it started but ran very poorly. When I opened the fuel lid I heard a whooshing sound. I let it sit a few more minutes and started it again. The same thing happened. After about 20 minutes of fiddling I started it up and it ran perfectly. Then, on the way home the Neutral light quit working, and then the new speedo needle started bouncing all over the place!

 

Here's the dilemna. I've owned the bike since last September and put 2600 miles on it. I absolutely love this bike, but it's had 3 visits to the shop, totalling almost 3 & 1/2 months. Now it needs to go in again to have it's 3rd speedo installed and I know I'll have to wait while the parts arrive on the slow boat from the mother country. The dealer is 2 hours from me (each way). I have other motorcycles to ride, but I really love the Le Mans and hate having it sitting in the shop so much of the time. I know I already qualify for Lemon Law refund due to the amount of time it's spent in the shop. Should I go for it, or should I keep it and expect these problems to stop happening? I've heard others say the gauges are junk, and the V11 is plagued with vapor lock and/or tank suck problems. I've been patient, trying to "work the bugs out" as others have suggested, but it's getting a little ridiculous, don't you think?

 

What would you do?

 

Buck

[docc]

Buck, sorry to hear your trials with the leMans. I remember calling MGNA saying, "aren't you embarrassed this bike has been in the shop so long (3months), shouldn't you do something to show this is such an UNUSUAL situation? There was just silence on the phone. Now I find (from these forums) 3 months is pretty typical. It bites, really.

 

I didn't know , when I got my new V11 sport, that I was getting a 'project bike.' Yet, after alll the fettling, tinkering and tampering this remains a challenging and interesting project. It is not unlike what I imagine Maserati ownership to be like.

 

With those 3 BMW's you just have to decide how much energy it's worth to have such a splinter-fringe ride. Coming to the forums for encouragement, spinning your own tools and taking satisfaction in making the leMans right

may be your solace in the process of having a relationship with your Guzzi.

 

It's true, I own a Honda but I have a relationship with my coy, provocative Moto Guzzi.

[Guest dkgross]

tough call. I went through this with my BMW 1150 RT, and the stress just was rediculous. What does your dealer say when you bring it up?? Perhaps the bike is new enough that the 'threat' of a Lemon Law claim will get him to get MG to just swap you out with a different bike.

 

one thing about lemon laws..they can be BRUTAL when it comes to mileage deductions on a motorcycle. Read your states laws thoroughly!

[Guest russ]

Three thoughts come to mind. Did you have that worthless Charcoal cannister removed? Also cover the fuel lines with insulation, that should help keep the fuel cooler and avoid vapor lock. Lastly, could your dealer have been part of the problem?

[Guest Buck]

I haven't spoken with my dealer about it, as I'm still in the decision making stages. As for mileage deductions, in all of the Lemon Law cases I was involved in (in the auto biz) I don't ever recall a mileage deduction taking place. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I don't recall ever hearing about it. In Ohio the Lemon Law applies to motorcycles the same way it applies to cars. I have 1 year or 18,000 miles from the date of purchase to file, whichever comes first. Under the law the manufacturer would be required to refund ALL of my money if my motorcycle were indeed determined to be a "Lemon". That includes purchase price, taxes, interest paid, and accessories added. I know some might think "wow, what a deal, ride for a year and get a refund", but it's not that simple. It's something I take very seriously, and I'm not interested in a free ride at Moto Guzzi's expense. I think they are a good company that builds an incredibly fun motorcycle, I just wish it didn't break so much.

 

It's a tough call for me. I had an idea the bike was going to be trouble before I bought it and I didn't care, but I wasn't expecting to be this addicted to riding it. That makes it all the more difficult to have it sitting in the shop. I just assumed I would ride one of the Beemers when the Guzzi was down. But the Germans just aren't as fun after a few dates with an Italian! The other issue is I want it to be reliable enough to take some trips on, I'm enjoying it that much. In particular I was thinking of riding it to the BMWMOA national rally this summer!

 

I sure wasn't expecting BMW reliability (which hasn't quite cracked up to be all it was supposed to be, either, but it's still not bad). But aside from a broken driveshaft at 5000 miles on my RT (and the month it took the moronic dealer in Columbus, Ohio to figure out the problem), the BMW's have spent less than a week in the shop all combined, in over 40,000 miles of riding!

 

I'm not looking for others to make my decision for me, I was just curious what the collective opinion is.

 

Buck

[jrt]

Hi Buck,

 

Try this for an easy fix to the tank suck problem. Open the gas cap- there's a rubber grommet or o-ring underneath on the flat part that makes a seal to the cap. Remove the rubber grommet. Problem fixed.

If you tend to ride your bike horizontally, gas may leak out. But if you ride upright (recommended), it works just fine.

 

Cheers,

Jason

 

edit: By affixing the 'bier' smilie, I am in no way suggesting that you should ride after many biers. Grommet removal is a one-bier job unless it's raining.

[RichMaund]

I let my Dealer fix a oil leak on my tranny under warranty. All it needed was a new seal on the input shaft! He has two very competent techs there. But a couple factors turned the job into a nightmare for me. The first was MGNA's bizzare way of doling out parts and the slowness of all their actions. It took weeks just to get the job approved under warranty after tear down and then a few more weeks for new flywheel bolts and a seal to get there. These are grade 5 (Metric 8.8) bolts and a seal. Not rocket science. Then the reassembly was hampered by the shop owners policy of "last come, first served". Jobs that came in way after mine got pushed ahead of mine because I wasn't there to bitch as loudly and as often as owners who lived closer. His own people ratted him out to me on it. They didn't like it either. So I showed up unannounced one day and asked him how proud he was of the job he was doing. I familiarized him with the Va. Lemon Law. I said it'd make really bad fodder for a newsletter article, but what was I to do? That, since my bike was in the shop for two months! He agreed to get it finished and three days later I drove up again to pick it up. They are 240 miles away from me. Not cheap to skip work and drive up there!

After that incident, my attitude became that I would never let a shop take my bike again. I could have done that oil seal job in about 12 hours. My bike would have been back on the road the next day and I only would have missed one day of work.

The Lemon Law can be a useful tool of last resort. But as you already discussed. It must be used very judiciously.

Good luck to you though! I hope you can work the bugs out of it soon. Guzzi's, once well sorted out, are very reliable bikes.

 

BTW. I still really like that shop and do a regular business with them. The tuning work they did for me was excellent and accomplished in just a couple hours when I rode in for an appointment one day. No hard feelings. And they did give me a great deal on the bike when I bought it from them. I don't want one "whoops" to ruin a hundred "attaboy's". But it did make me seriously think about just doing all the major maintenance myself. So now I do and I'm a happy guy.

[al_roethlisberger]

Hi Buck,

 

I too am very sorry to hear about your experience with your bike and the extended service periods.

 

While I also am more than happy to shout accolades for the fun and excitement these bikes bring, I've also been very vocal about my disappointment with MG's apparently poor manufacturing QA and service track-record. That being said, all we can do for now is choose to work around it, and/or keep needling MG in an effort and hope that it will improve over time.

 

 

I don't have any specific tips in regard to your instrument failures, but here are two suggestions. First, there is a thread or three here in the forum discussing speedo/angle-drive/cable binding/failures, especially in regard to applications where handlebar kits were installed.

 

Here is one:

 

V11 Forum - Speedo Cable/Angle-drive Thread

 

Second, you may want to do a search on "Tommaselli" as well, as I remember a thread discussing their installation, and the catch-22s.

 

 

In regard to the tank-suck, while Jason's tip to remove the rubber plug may be one practical fix to the issue, here is our FAQ that addresses the actual causes of the problem... and some more holistic remedies:

 

V11 Le Mans Forum - "Vapor Lock" and "Tank Suck" FAQ

 

 

 

Well, good luck, and I hope you are able to sort out the problems such that you don't have to give up on the bike. We'd hate to lose another owner and Forum contributor simply because MG let you down.

 

 

While this is no solace for your particular problems, I am hoping that the problems many of us have experienced with the first year bikes(2002) have been addressed in the subsequent models. They've certainly appeared to address this issue to some degree with regard to the new integral fuel pump in the tank on 2003+ V11 models.... so who knows.

 

Take care

 

al

[Guest Buck]

Thanks for the responses and suggestions. I rode the bike to work today (about 80 miles round trip). It really pisses me off that the bike is so fun to ride. If it were just another bike I would have already made my decision.

 

I'm pretty sure my speedo issues are in the instrument itself. The installation of the Tommaselli clip-ons has not changed anything with regard to the speedo. Furthermore the bouncing needle only occurs after riding in warmer weather for more than 30 miles, and the first occurrence did not have any correlation to the installation of the clip-ons. Once the bike sits for a while the problem disappears.

 

As for tank suck/vapor lock, I've read the faq. In fact, I read about this problem some time ago and after understanding the location of the fuel pump & filter, as well as the location and routing of the fuel hoses and tip over valve I was quite surprised that I didn't have a hint of this problem last fall, even riding in traffic in 80-85 degree weather. When I had the problem yesterday it was in the low 70's. I wonder why it took a couple thousand miles for the problem to surface?

 

I know I can fix the issues. I was an auto tech for 20 years (the last 8 years were with Mitsubishi), and believe me there is nothing on the Le Mans that even begins to compare in complexity to the vehicles I used to work on. I could even send that piece of $hit Veglia gauge out and have it repaired properly, and probably never have another speedo issue. But that's not the point. Part of a vehicle's purchase price includes a certain predetermined amount of money to cover the cost of warranty repairs. The manufacturer averages the cost of warranty against the number of vehicles sold and comes up with a dollar amount to build into the purchase price of future vehicles. Sometimes they win, sometimes they loose. Sometimes there is an unexplained midyear price increase. Ever wonder why? Anyway, the point is I pay for warranty, therefore I should use it instead of fixing (or re-engineering) the bike myself. I just wish they didn't make it such a time-consuming process. I also wish they would install improved parts when they encounter repeated failures instead of installing yet another copy of the same piece of garbage that failed the last time, as is the case with the speedo.

 

Anyway I think I've decided to give Moto-Guzzi another chance. But if I spend the summer repeatedly dealing with trying to keep the bike on the road it will be Lemon-Lawed by next September.

 

Buck

[Mike Stewart]

Hi Buck,

 

I can feel your pain! I too was a BMW lover until I laid eyes on the Green V11Sport in the BMW parts department. I had to have it, and this was just after I sold my 97 F650. Try explaining to your wife that you wanted to buy another bike. I rode out of the shop a few days later with my first Guzzi and Italian bike. I never rode one before and fell in love with my new V twin. It has soul, not like any bike I had before. The BMW's are well designed, do everything well, but were boring in looks and sound. I sold my 94 R1100RSL a year later and have never looked back. I have had problems with some of my Beemers, mainly transmission issues (89 K75S trans jumped out of gear, speedo inop) (R1100RSL trans bind in gear, turns out Guzzi moly lube fixed the problem).

I rode my V11Sport for over a year with out any major problem (just relays and 14,000 miles). Yes ,my speedo jumped the last few months before it quit and I have had my bike in for the trans leak twice now (second time third gear came apart while in the hands of the dealer). After having my bike at the shop for 14 weeks (3.5 months, and it still leaks trans oil and the speedo is still inop), my opinion has change alittle. Yes I love the bike and every Guzzi owner out there. I love the Guzzi rallys and the tight niche people it brings. But after having a bike in the shop for that long of time, really makes you wonder how much it would cost you the owner for a trans repair after the warrantee is up! I had thought about buying a 2002 Lemans for the ultimate two up touring machine, but with the peeling paint on the engine and the trans issues, I am forced to look elsewere. I think Guzzi needs to wake up and take care of the owners it has now, before they go after new sales. How about extending the factory warrantee for the amount of time it has been at the dealer! I know that I will demand 3.5 months of extended factory warrantee for the time the bike was at the dealer waiting for parts from Italy. This is just a rant, I still have love for Guzzi! I am thinking of replacing the V11Sport with a Aprilia Tunono, but I luv the Guzzi people too much. What should I do..... I work in the auto trade as a tech. and am very aware of the lemon law in California. The vehicle has to go to three different dealers to attemp to repair the vehicle. If after three attemps the problem is still there, then it will be brought back, mileage will be deducted form the vehicle. I however never heard of a lemon law for motorcycles, is there such a thing in California?

 

Mike, ranting and needing a cocktail!

[Mike Stewart]

Hi Buck, Mike again!

 

I have been a GM tech. for over 25 years now and have run across many jumping speedo issues with Oldsmobile and Buicks in the late 70's. The main problem cars had with jumping speedo needles was the lack of lube on the cable or because there was a kink in the cable. What happens in most jumping speedo issues is that the cable itself will whine up and then release making the speedo jump. My V11Sport has a kink at the speedo head where the cable attaches. The kink is caused by the headlamp bracket and is really stressed when turned lock to lock. I know this is what made the speedo drive go out, but try telling the Guzzi dealer this. That is another story. I can fix anything on my bike but it would still cost me an arm and a leg for all the gears in the transmission that just replaced under warrantee. I have never carried my Guzzi tool kit in 14.000 miles, I think I need to tow my Snap-On tool box around everywhere I go or go the Harley route and just have a pickup truck follow everwhere I go.

 

Mike still ranting and needing a cocktail!

[callison]

Hey Mike, if you're going to Prescott again this year, I can bring along the vice-grips you swore were un-needed. You know, the ones that held together your bag mount from Wikieup to Prescott.

 

At least you didn't lose the bag. I lost my left one 4 weeks ago. MGNA doesn't stock replacement parts, but I was lucky they had a set that they had scavenged hardware from, so were willing to overcharge me for a new left side bag. When it showed up today, it was a right hand bag. MGNA is staffed by idiots. No wonder Guzzi does so badly on this continent.

[docc]

Carl, Are you talking about the Tekno semi-soft saddlebags? If so, where does the Loktite go?

 

(Hey! You mean stuff falls off these bikes?!)

[Guest Foxbat]

Buck,

take a large hammer to your bike. Bury the remains in the woods at midnight then never speak of it again.

 

It's the only way and you'll thank me later

 

Andy - somewhere they don't have Lemon Laws.

[jsciullo]

Buck- if you havent got rid of it yet - its too late!! Sorry to hear about your problems. The speedo thing is a drag but you can still ride the bike. The tank suck problems can be traced back to the cannisters, etc.... and will eventually be fixed by you or the dealer. You love the bike and just like anything else you feel passionate about (includes wives, girlfriends, kids, golf, etc....) you get over emotional when things go wrong. I know, I got stranded this weekend as well. Your bike will be perfect soon. It will take you across country and across the street. It will do it all the things that your Bimmer will do, but it will do it with soooo much more than can be explained in this forum that you will forever regret getting rid of it. I say work out the kinks and when that feeling of desperation crosses your path again- take that broken down, crappy fairing, broken speedo piece of Italian art around a couple of those curves you have down there and all will be forgotten.

Jim