Tunedit - Tuneboy

[dlaing]

Hey Dlaing,

 

In which zone do you have decrease the advance ?

Of how much of degrée ?

 

I have solve my problem of ping by enriching (with PCIII) the zone tps 80 and 100 by 15% (beetween 3000tr and 5500tr).

 

The other zones are enriching at 10% for low rev and 5% for high rev (just for smooth drive and better cooling).

 

without increase fuel consumption significatly.

 

chrisfer81

74624[/snapback]

Did you get dyno tuned for the map, or are you using a modified map from the CD or download?

What are your modifications?

Mine was pinging between 4500 and 5500 above about 75 percent throttle, so I backed the advance off just about 2 or 3 % in the appropriate cells. And gave it more fuel, probably around 15%

I am thinking of going leaner with even less advance, but I suspect I may lose power if I do that.

It is still certainly a work in progress.

I got rid of the pinging mostly at the expense of fuel consumption, now I have to turn that around.

The last run I got 34MPG, up a little from the last few runs, but my target is 40MPG, with no popping, pinging or surging.

[Alex-Corsa]

Why didn't you try something like running on higher octane Gas and use iridium sprak plugs. I nevere heared a Guzzi ping (here in Europe) of if it had faulty valves

and low octane Gas.

[dlaing]

Why didn't you try something like running on higher octane Gas and use iridium sprak plugs. I nevere heared a Guzzi ping (here in Europe) of if it had faulty valves

and low octane Gas.

75017[/snapback]

Carrying octane booster in a bottle is a pain.

I would think a better spark would make it ping even more.

I thought of going with colder spark plugs, but never tried as I figure that may increase the risk of burning valves.

Certainly I can add enough fuel to make it stop pinging, but I think a better solution lies elsewhere. Specifically in the timing and cylinder offset.

[luhbo]

...

I would think a better spark would make it ping even more.

I thought of going with colder spark plugs, but never tried as I figure that may increase the risk of burning valves....

75062[/snapback]

 

Colder or hotter plugs don't really affect the spark itself!

 

Hubert

[chrisfer81]

Fisrtly I have reset the ECU setting, the trim to 0 (-127 to +128).

I checked the adjustment of the TPS (150mv closed).

And I get my bike to dyno a map of the PCIII (at 13:1)

The map resulting of this dyno say that i must put more fuel in some point in the low rpm and low gaz, but not really necessary at the zone of pinging, and then the dyno don't solve the pinging problem.

 

My bike was pinging between 3500 and 5500 beyond 75 of opening throttle.

 

I enriched by 18% column 80 and 15% the column 100 percent throttle until 5500tr/min (and in continuation gradually decreased enrichment).

This completly solve my pinging problem and don't affect the fuel consumption (because finally I do not drive full throttle for a long time in a travel).

 

And I even enriched the other zones by 10% until 3500tr and 5% beyond that, just to improve the behavior (then the fuel consumption increase, but a very little 5%).

 

I think backed the advance off just about 2 or 3 % it is weak.

You can reduce 2° without losing too much power. (2° is equivalent at 5 or 6 %, not ?)

 

May be a good compromise would be to put 2° in less and 10 % fuel moreover in the appropriate cells.

 

 

Good tests !

 

- chrisfer81 -

[dlaing]

QUOTE(dlaing @ Jan 20 2006, 08:20 AM)

...

I would think a better spark would make it ping even more.

I thought of going with colder spark plugs, but never tried as I figure that may increase the risk of burning valves....

Colder or hotter plugs don't really affect the spark itself!

 

Hubert

75205[/snapback]

What I meant, is that the better spark of the iridium would have a very small advancing effect on the flame front that might make it ping more.

Rather than using iridium, I thought a colder plug would slow down the advance of the flame front, and thus reduce the chance of pinging.

But from what I understand, switching to a cold plug is like changing a thermostat, potentially allowing the engine to run too hot.

 

Since I can adjust the mixture, that is the better approach.

But now since I can adjust the mixture and timing, I suppose I could go with the iridium.

But I prefer the idea of cheap disposible plugs to expensive plugs since any plug is going to out last the plug washers. Every time I pull the plugs for a valve adjustment, I like the idea of having a new plug washer, and the only way I know how to have a new washer is to have a new plug.

Iridiums every 3000 miles is out of my budget.

[dlaing]

I nevere heared a Guzzi ping (here in Europe) of if it had faulty valves

and low octane Gas.

75017[/snapback]

If you compare the PCIII maps for European bikes with the PCIII maps for US bikes, the PCIII corrections for US bikes are much richer.

But I am still surprised you can run on low octane gas.

I should post the PCIII Mistral maps for US and Europe for comparison.

Ideally it would be nice to compare the ECU maps from both countries.

It could be they are the same and something else is different like the fuel injector.

Luhbo has the Titanium ECU, so although it is an interesting comparison, it effects few bikes.

I loaded the Ti map and it ran very poorly at low rpms, adding PCIII corrections did not help.

And adding PCIII corrections to my base map made the bike suck gas.

Chrisfer has the ECU 15M type C7, I'll have to see what type I have.

It is interesting that his pinging was at lower RPMs than mine.

It is also interesting that dyno-tuning did not detect a need to enrich where we pinged.

If someone with a non-Ti European ECU without O2 sensor has Tuneboy, I'd like to exchange maps.

And if anyone did a multi-gas analysis dynotuned PCIII map, I'd like to see that!

[dlaing]

I posted screenshots of Tuneboy's TuneEdit for anyone interested.

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dlaing/

This version of TuneBoy may soon be outdated when Wayne creates a newer version.

[motoguzznix]

QUOTE(dlaing @ Jan 20 2006, 08:20 AM)

...

I would think a better spark would make it ping even more.

I thought of going with colder spark plugs, but never tried as I figure that may increase the risk of burning valves....

 

What I meant, is that the better spark of the iridium would have a very small advancing effect on the flame front that might make it ping more.

Rather than using iridium, I thought a colder plug would slow down the advance of the flame front, and thus reduce the chance of pinging.

But from what I understand, switching to a cold plug is like changing a thermostat, potentially allowing the engine to run too hot.

 

Since I can adjust the mixture, that is the better approach.

But now since I can adjust the mixture and timing, I suppose I could go with the iridium.

But I prefer the idea of cheap disposible plugs to expensive plugs since any plug is going to out last the plug washers. Every time I pull the plugs for a valve adjustment, I like the idea of having a new plug washer, and the only way I know how to have a new washer is to have a new plug.

Iridiums every 3000 miles is out of my budget.

David

some comments to your statements above:

 

An iridium plug makes no better spark. Spark position might be located more exactly and this can be of some advantage. But in a large combustion chamber like the Guzzis I doubt this very much. The better iridium material is necessary to retain the lifetime of a conventional plug with the smaller plug electrode.

 

A colder plug does not slow down the advance of the flame front. If the mixture can be ignited by the spark, the flame front burns independent from the spark plug. The only thing that changes with a cooler plug is the temperature of the plug. A too hot plug can cause the mixture to be ignited prior to the spark coming on.

A cooler spark plug is more likely to decrease the risk of a burnt valve than vice versa. I think a BPR7ES is worth a try and cost is the same like the BP6s. You should observe the colour of the plug, if too dark Guzzi did the right choice. There is no risk with it. Going to BP5 would be more risk.

 

It is unnecessary to adjust valves and replace plugs every 3000 miles. Adjust the valves to 0.20/0.25 mm and drive it for the next 6-7000 miles. The increased valve clearence has also the advantage to decrease the risk of pinging.

 

Believe it or not.

[lavrgs]

There is actually no info about the Guzzi version there, but you will get it from Wayne McDonald.

 

Pardon my ignorance, but is Wayne McDonald someone at TuneBoy? As you said there is no application listed for Guzzi on the site so I assume there is a backdoor.

[dlaing]

There is actually no info about the Guzzi version there, but you will get it from Wayne McDonald.

 

Pardon my ignorance, but is Wayne McDonald someone at TuneBoy? As you said there is no application listed for Guzzi on the site so I assume there is a backdoor.

Yah, the backdoor is to email them.

Currently the Guzzi product is only the mapping sofware, but if a few people email him, he might be motivate to complete the data logging and diagnostic software.

sales at tuneboy.com.au

I believe they are for the most part a husband and wife operation.

Wayne is the product developer.

[dlaing]

David

some comments to your statements above:

 

An iridium plug makes no better spark. Spark position might be located more exactly and this can be of some advantage. But in a large combustion chamber like the Guzzis I doubt this very much. The better iridium material is necessary to retain the lifetime of a conventional plug with the smaller plug electrode.

 

A colder plug does not slow down the advance of the flame front. If the mixture can be ignited by the spark, the flame front burns independent from the spark plug. The only thing that changes with a cooler plug is the temperature of the plug. A too hot plug can cause the mixture to be ignited prior to the spark coming on.

A cooler spark plug is more likely to decrease the risk of a burnt valve than vice versa. I think a BPR7ES is worth a try and cost is the same like the BP6s. You should observe the colour of the plug, if too dark Guzzi did the right choice. There is no risk with it. Going to BP5 would be more risk.

 

It is unnecessary to adjust valves and replace plugs every 3000 miles. Adjust the valves to 0.20/0.25 mm and drive it for the next 6-7000 miles. The increased valve clearence has also the advantage to decrease the risk of pinging.

 

Believe it or not.

Thanks for the comments.

I doubt the iridium would ping less as was suggested.

If you believe the hype, http://www.globaldenso.com/PLUG/power/features.html

then it does produce a better spark, produces more HP and gets better fuel consumption, then I would suspect the engine would be running hotter and be more prone to pinging. But less carbon build-up might also reduce pinging, so maybe I am wrong.

I believe the advertising hype for the iridium plugs is exaggerated, but still carries some truth. I can only imagine the improvement in efficiency being a fraction of what they suggest, but you never know.

I also thought a hotter plug made the piston hotter as the piston reaches TDC, and thus faster combustion, but maybe I am misinformed.

As for valve adjustments every 6000 miles, I disagree because I see changes just about every time I check the valves, especially lately, probably because my valves are deforming.

But maybe if I ran at .20/.25 instead of .15/.20 the setting would last longer.

You made more power backing off the timing 3 degrees.

I think that would be better way to reduce pinging.

Did you back it off everywhere?

[luhbo]

I'd not buy TuneBoy again.

 

- As the WM15 has no internal series number, Wayne prefers to flash his own code into the ROM- point one.

 

- The software comes without any really usable documentation. It gives you a lot of possibilities of maps that you can change then, but without documentation this is not really fun. I tried to get these informations directly from Wayne via eMail, this was not really fun either! - point two.

 

- it is not possible to read other ROMS with this software (maybe this was a request of some professional tuners ) - point three

 

- as long as it is not possible with this software to adjust the idle mixture or to do any tests it's just crepleware. Wayne promisses to make it ready for some years now. Who knows how long the 15M will be sold? - point four.

 

- As mentioned above- it can not read and interpret the ROM of your ecu. You'll get the cable, you'll have to make a hexdump, send this to Wayne, he'll translate this into his own format and send it back and only now you can download this software to your ecu. But now the fun part begins - you will have to connect the entire bike to the internet to get the necessary code that makes the whole system working - that's not what I call userfriendly. Ofcourse you are sure, that the code you've got from Wayne is exactly the code that you've sent to him. - point five

 

- There are working solutions available. Maybe Ernst from A. can post his experiencies with the software he has. It was not too expensive to be not a good alternative to TuneEdit, I assume. - point six

 

Hubert

[dlaing]

I'd not buy TuneBoy again.

I would!

 

- As the WM15 has no internal series number, Wayne prefers to flash his own code into the ROM- point one.

I would be pretty sure that Direct Link and VDSTS do the same. Obviously PCIII won't. In any case flashing to the ROM does not seem to invasive to me.

 

- The software comes without any really usable documentation. It gives you a lot of possibilities of maps that you can change then, but without documentation this is not really fun. I tried to get these informations directly from Wayne via eMail, this was not really fun either! - point two.

I found the documentation usable. Basically he provides good documentation, but for the wrong ECU.

But to be fair, the competing product, Direct Link, also falls short. It covers the right ECU, but for a Harley or a Ducati.

Both are freely downloadable, so you can decide for yourself which appears to be better documented.

 

- it is not possible to read other ROMS with this software (maybe this was a request of some professional tuners ) - point three

I don't think that is true. You should be able to read and write to additional ROMS as long as they are also 15M and You buy an additional key for each ECU. This is also true of Direct Link. Did you want free READ-ONLY capability? That would be a reasonable free feature, but implementing might be difficult while keeping the anti-piracy feature.

Compare this to the price of converting to a MY15, or compare it to a PCIII that can only operate on one computer at a time.

 

- as long as it is not possible with this software to adjust the idle mixture or to do any tests it's just crepleware. Wayne promisses to make it ready for some years now. Who knows how long the 15M will be sold? - point four.

You can adjust the idle mixture in the fuel map. This is not exactly the same as setting the trim, but it can have the same effect.

I knew the diagnostics features were not ready going in, but yah, I really hoped the diagnostic application would have been ready a long time ago.

Still the price is cheaper than the Direct Link, that also cannot do diagnostic tests. PCIII cannot do tests. MY15M can do tests, but unless you are soldering wizard, it is a lot more expensive.

 

- As mentioned above- it can not read and interpret the ROM of your ecu. You'll get the cable, you'll have to make a hexdump, send this to Wayne, he'll translate this into his own format and send it back and only now you can download this software to your ecu. But now the fun part begins - you will have to connect the entire bike to the internet to get the necessary code that makes the whole system working - that's not what I call userfriendly. Ofcourse you are sure, that the code you've got from Wayne is exactly the code that you've sent to him. - point five

I found that inconvenient too. I had to run 50 foot ethernet cord out the window to the garage where I had to put my unpatched PC on the internet.

 

- There are working solutions available. Maybe Ernst from A. can post his experiencies with the software he has. It was not too expensive to be not a good alternative to TuneEdit, I assume. - point six

I don't know why it would be better. Assuming it is the DirectLink software, it is very similar. It lacks the PCIII map import and Tuning Link integration and it costs more. But it may have advantages that I don't know about. Reading its illegible QuickStart guide it appears that you need to use either a USB or parallel key, and key in a Customer ____(illegible word) Perhaps it ships with a more legible manual?

There is no mention of connecting to the internet so presumably a lock and key relationship is established between ECU and hardware key. If that is all there is to it, that seems to be a better system.

 

For TuneBoy and DirectLink, I wonder what happens if the ECU ever dies??? Obviously they cannot trust you and give you a free new key, right???

-- David Laing

 

Hubert

[motoguzznix]

Hubert, here are my experiences with the Ultimap system:

 

I had also some problems with it.

There is a dongle to be connected to the serial bus on the computer. This dongle is connected to the ECU. My first dongle did not work perfect, I did some flashloads, but eventially I could neither do flashloads nor get access to any ECU for diagnose purpose.

 

The second dongle now works perfect.

The system can make diagnose of the P7, P8, 1.5, 1.6, 5.9 ECUs.

The fuel pump, ignition, injectors can be actuated. Fuel trim can be adjusted. Every sensor figure is visible.

For the 1.5 ECU flashloads can be done. You have a base mapping file for your type of bike stored in the system, you can add or subtract a percentage of fuel from the base and offset map and you can add and subtract deg from the ignition map. So you cannot see the absolute values stored in your map, but only the differences you apply to.

Further you can adjust the max rpm.

There are a lot of flashloads for different bikes available in the system for open mufflers etc.

For flashloading a new file into your ECU a code must be entered. Two codes came with the system, every further code costs 90