Upgrading the suspension on my V11

[Lex]

Two weeks ago I concluded that, in spite of the large improvement over stock, the damping on the V11’s forks was not what I wanted. I went back to LE last week and had them change (soften) the high-speed (non-adjustable) damping. I took the bike for a short (150 miles) ride yesterday and a very happy with the final results. It is hard to describe properly set-up sport bike suspension because you mostly say what it isn’t, it isn’t jarring but it also isn’t numb. Several years ago a friend said, “You feel the bumps but you don’t hate them”, that is as close to a one sentence description of a well set up bike as I have heard. You need to feel the bumps to know what is happening at the contact patch but the suspension should move to allow the tire to stay in contact with the road and it should also soften the impact delivered to the rider. The only remaining problem is a bit of harshness from the rear end under some conditions. Bikes with a heavy final drive, short swing arm and no progressive shock linkage may be condemned to that problem. I would like to ride a bike with a well set-up Ohlins/ Fox/ Penske to see how much a really top quality shock would reduce the problem.

 

The guy I was riding with was on a Ducatis ST2. We swapped bikes for a while, after all the work on my bike the suspension felt remarkably like the Duck. The Ducati was a little softer, as befits a bike with touring in its name, but the overall feel was very similar. It is a sad commentary on the as delivered forks and shocks that I had to spend $750 and change every part of the suspension (springs, high and low speed compression and rebound damping) to get the Guzzi to work as well as a bone stock Ducati.

 

As an aside, I had a nice chat with Jim Lindemann after the work was done. I learned my description of the forks damping was not accurate. I have been saying the damping is to stiff; according to Jim it is more complex than that. There is very little damping (rebound or compression) for the first part of the forks travel. The last part of the travel (not the “bump stop”, the last 1/3 or so) damping becomes very stiff. That, combined with ridiculously soft springs, is what delivers the jarring we all feel and I was misinterpreting as stiff damping. Jim also said something interesting about springs. I can’t reproduce it word for word but this is fairly close: “Bikes with soft springs and more pre-load sort of move around a lot, they never seem to find a “set”, bikes with the correct springs sort of ride on top of the springs and stay there.” I had not thought it out this clearly but that pretty much describes the V11, especially the fork, before the work and after.

 

I can’t tell anyone else what is or is not worth his or her hard earned bucks but for me the work was well worth my money. Everyone has his or her own priorities and budget, for my taste making the bike work much better for the price of a set of high-end mufflers or an after market shock was a great deal.

 

YMMV,

 

Lex

[Mike Stewart]

Hi Lex,

 

Good to hear that you are pleased with the work LE performed. The first thing I noticed on my bike after the LE suspension work was the lack of front end dive under heavy braking. With the old fork springs and valving, the front end would dive so much, the rear end would get really light. I felt like I was doing a hand stand when on the binders hard. This with a steepened head angle due to the compressed forks made going fast a challange. At least it forced me to be very smooth when the brakes were applied and in turns. I now have to learn how to ride the bike all over again. I have noticed a slight head shake when leaned over and riding over poor pavement surfaces. Perhaps I need to crank up the steering dampner ( I have it all the way backed off) to take care of this issue. I also had the bike kick up in the rear when hitting sharp bumps. I had to crank up the preload on the rear shock because it was bottoming out against the bumper. This brings up another question.

 

I measured the swingarm length and also from the swingarm pivot to shock mount. I figured it out to be about a 1.9 to 1 ratio, which is really close to 2 to 1. Now I measured about 1.5 inches of rear shock travel and if my math is correct, that means about 3 inches of travel. What is the claimed rear wheel travel? Can I cut down the bumper by perhaps 1/4 of an inch. to gain another 1/2 of needed travel?

 

Anyway, Lex are you going to the Ojai rally on April 5th? I hope to see you there!

 

Mike

[dlaing]

So what are your guys sag measurements now?

(assuming you have gotten around to measuring it.)

Mike, that bottoming bumper is pretty large and stiffens up the later part of your travel. Cutting it down sounds like a good idea, but it also sounds like you may still be under sprung.

[Lex]

Mike,

 

Yeah, the lack of front end dive was what I was referring to with my quote from Jim about springs. The bike is so much more "planted" under braking now. I'm finally starting to ride the bike in my style (think of slow motion video of KRSR ) instead of being forced to ride around the bikes faults. I haven't picked up the head shake but that maybe that I haven't hit the right combination of bumps/ lean angle/ speed. I'd talk to Jim about it, his knowledge is just amazing. When I got there Friday he was "fixing" a suspension problem over the phone. "Ok, you open the throttle at the exit of turn three, describe what the bike does. (pause) No, don't stiffen the front pre-load, back off the rear, you see, what is happening is..." Pretty amazing to an amateur like me.

 

Guzzi claims 5" of travel in the rear, I haven't measured it. I think (not sure, this is outside my knowledge) dlaing is right, the bumper isn't the end of travel, it is more of a "helper spring" to stiffen the last part of the shocks travel. FWIW, I wouldn't mess with the bump stop before I spoke to LE, part of what you paid for is their knowledge. I've found them very willing to offer advice.

 

I'm hoping to make Ojai for the day Saturday. I'm about to go back to work (I've been a bum for the last 19 months, wonderful time) and I'll be there if I'm not at work. I'd love to meet you and a bunch of the other Guzzi folk I've only "met" over the 'net.

 

dlaing,

 

As far as the sag I'm a bit embarrassed to tell you I don't even know the position of the adjusters. I was so happy and having so much fun on Sunday I never touched a thing. I brought my little note book and a pen to check things and keep my notes up but after we got a little crazy on SR 41 and I never had to think about the suspension I just rode the stupid thing. I had a little too much sag in the forks before I took them back to LE, I measured 1.125" of sag for the bike and another 3/8" (i.e. 1.5") with me on the bike. Jim agreed this was to much and planed to add a little (1/8") more pre-load while the bike was apart.

 

Cheers,

 

Lex

[Mike Stewart]

Yo David and Lex,

 

My front fork sag before the LE treatment was 23mm. static, 35mm with rider. Now it is 20mm static and 30mm with rider. Not a whole lot of difference in sag measurments but it really made a difference. I think it has to do with the spring rate and the amount of preload that the spring has on it that makes the difference.

 

My rear shock sag was 8mm. static and 26mm. with rider. I had the rear spring preload cranked up really high to prevent the launch over the bar syndrome over dips and large bumps. The new sag is still 8mm. static and 25mm. with rider. With this sag, I still had the launch over the bar syndrome. I increased the preload to 17mm. sag and the sydrome is gone. I also think the rear spring is under sprung, but if I had more travel before hitting the shock bumper, the launch problem would also be gone.

 

I just talked to LE and Jim was out of the office. I will call again tomorrow. They did say that the shock bumper does flatten out easy and shouldn't be causing the problem. The rear wheel travel is measured with the bumper compressed. So that means roughly 2.5 inches of shock travel and 5" at the rear wheel. Sure does not feel like it!

 

Mike

[dlaing]

Thanks guys,

New springs are on my wish list!

When I had my forks off and was comparing the spring rates to Todd Eagan's computracked forks, the difference was night and day. His felt progressive and mine felt regressive. If only the axle fittings had matched, I would have been able to try them out on my bike.

[Guest Jaap]

Suspension setup reading