running on Ethanol (E85)

[gthyni]

Winter is here and with the snow modification season

 

In Sweden we have a cheaper, more environmental friendly fuel

called E85. It is 85% ethanol and 15% petrol.

 

I used it in my car, currently 2/3 E85 and 1/3 petrol because of

starting issue with pure E85 in cold weather. In summertime I tried

running on pure E85 with good result.

 

My car is an BMW 1994 with M50 engine. It has a very adaptive ECU

and large dimension fuel pump and injectors. Most other cars needs

to raise the fuel pressure into the injectors since with E85 it requires

about 30% more fuel injected than with petrol.

 

I am pondering running my V11 on E85 next summer,

but I not really sure how to go about it.

 

Do you think I can get enough throughput from the injectors for 30+% more fuel?

Is it possible to get that kind of adjustment using my PCIII?

Otherwise, can I manipulate the fuel pump/pressure adjuster to raise the fuel pressure?

Is the fuel pump capable of handling the additional load?

[richard100t]

Hmm I wonder if the alternator is strong enough to handle anymore load lol. I'm trying to be funny....

[luhbo]

....

Do you think I can get enough throughput from the injectors for 30+% more fuel?

Is it possible to get that kind of adjustment using my PCIII?

Otherwise, can I manipulate the fuel pump/pressure adjuster to raise the fuel pressure?

Is the fuel pump capable of handling the additional load?

68079[/snapback]

 

You'll have to raise the pressure, unless you wont go beyond 6500 RPM. At least if alcohol and gas have the same viscosity. That's no question of PCIII or not, the only problem is to inject this lot of fuel during 2 cycles at higher RPMs.

Raising the pressure could make idle and low rev response seriously trickier to deal with IMHO

 

Switching to alcohol without raising remarkably the CR is what I'd call a bodge (as I have recently learned the meaning of this word). This will be not so easy.

And also the spark advance could be remarkable different, as alcohol doesn't ping as easy as petrol.

I'm looking also for a practical solution to raise the pressure, but all I've seen so far was quite expensive.

 

It looks as it could become a very interesting project. So far only race engines were driven by alcohol, so why not start it on a Guzzi.

 

 

Hubert

[jrt]

It's not as simple as just replacing the fuel pressure regulator?

[gthyni]

or adjust the pressure adjuster.

 

This is what the service manual says:

The pressure adjuster is a device which is necessary for

maintaining a constant pressure jump on the injectors.

The pressure adjuster is a differential type with diaphragm,

and is pre-set during assembly at 3+-0,2 bar.

Upon exceeding the pre-set pressure, the internal duct

opens to allow the excess fuel to flow back into the tank.

Note that to keep the pressure jump to the injectors

constant, the difference between the fuel pressure and

the intake manifold pressure must also be constant.

 

nothing about how to adjust the pressure ....

 

Maybe I need My15M from Cliff and a 02-sensor to get this done properly?

[luhbo]

or adjust the pressure adjuster.

 

This is what the service manual says:

 

 

nothing about how to adjust the pressure .... 

 

Maybe I need My15M from Cliff and a 02-sensor to get this done properly?

68091[/snapback]

 

 

They're not adjustable, albeit once in USA was sold an adjustable unit.

They are not cheap, adjustable or not!

My15M can't help you if the pressure is too low.

If you already have a PC, give it a try, why not. I don't think it can solve the pressure problem, but who knows.

 

Hubert

[gthyni]

My15M can't help you if the pressure is too low.

If you already have a PC, give it a try, why not. I don't think it can solve the pressure problem, but who knows.

 

Of course not, I was thinking more about having access to more adjustability

with Cliff's box.

 

I know an adjustable pressure adjuster for about 70 euros,

( Malpassi AIR001/AIR004)

It would requires some modification to the fuel system since it

does fit the current mounting and I have to check the dimension,

it can be a bit large.

 

 

even available with a pressure clock

[Cliff]

Couple of issues

 

The standard setup runs the injectors to over 90% on at full throttle/redline so even if they were hardwired on there will still not be enough fuel. For lower RPM the ECU has a 16ms limit.

 

The easiest change is to bump the fuel pressure. This could probably be done with a standard regulator if you pressurise the extra nozzle on the regulator. Some setups run this to a manifold.

 

Some places can modify your injectors to increase the flow rate.

 

You then have to map it all.

[DeBenGuzzi]

They have E85 here and its kind of a crock, Most vehicles run like crap on it unless properly set-up for it AND even when they are they don't get as good of performance. At least on the larger engines. A friend of mine pulled a boat and the milage was so bad he could have just used normal gas for the same money. Now if you have a good mileage commuter I wouldn't think it would hurt as bad. But Also the E85 I've seen is only about 20cents Cheaper than straight Petrol. And if you have a small vehicle you save what? $2 at most? and a large vehicle with the worse milage maybe save $1? I think they need yet another better alternative to remove the dependancy on the mideast. I want Hydro cars just find a way to make them so they aren't rolling hydro bombs.

They have them for bikes but it looks like a Cannondale that does 0-55top speed in 12.1 sec makes less noise than a computer and goes 100mi on a single "tank" I want one soooo bad I wonder if its good enough for a BMX track I'm much to lazy to pedal.

[gthyni]

The standard setup runs the injectors to over 90% on at full throttle/redline so even if they were hardwired on there will still not be enough fuel. For lower RPM the ECU has a 16ms limit.

 

The easiest change is to bump the fuel pressure. This could probably be done with a standard regulator if you pressurise the extra nozzle on the regulator. Some setups run this to a manifold.

 

Some places can modify your injectors to increase the flow rate.

 

Cheers, Cliff, some good input as always.

Perhaps going with one size larger injectors would do the trick,

but do I think they are too expensive if I can find used ones.

 

But Also the E85 I've seen is only about 20cents Cheaper than straight Petrol.

 

OK, but I have to pay the swedish fuel prices.

Besides I have no trouble with the middleeast,

much of our oil comes from Norway anyway

But we are running out of global oil reserves fast, and since

I like to tinker why not lead the way instead of a follower.

Ethanol is the best bet to keep our V11 running in the future.

[Anthro]

I am not a chemist but I heard that Ethanol may rust some metals especially the gas tank (not a concern with the V11)...

 

I would be brilliant if, in the future we can just uncap the gas tank to have a drink, so we will go to the fueling station for the ethanol, then to the pub to get some soft drinks, and snacks.

 

The next step in efficiency is the biodiesel but MG has enough vibrations as it is...

 

The environmental issue in the USA does not seem to bother enough people... here in Texas talking about the environment put you on the spot as a sort of Hippie or some one who wants to live in the un-pleasant stone age.

 

One more note of concern... for every gallon of petrol (Bezine) we burn, 20 gallons of carbodioxide are made... (Green house gas)...

 

Anthro

[luhbo]

They have E85 here and its kind of a crock, Most vehicles run like crap on it unless properly set-up for it AND even when they are they don't get as good of performance. At least on the larger engines. A friend of mine pulled a boat and the milage was so bad he could have just used normal gas for the same money.

...

68148[/snapback]

 

You have to increase the CR remarkably to get usable results. The inherent energy of ethanol is much lower than that of petrol, that's the main issue.

Anyway, I like this idea, probably most of all I've read of in these forums.

 

Hubert

[Paul Minnaert]

Adding an extra shower type injector? I'm not shure if the marelli will be happy to suppy the power? Or use the daytona c kit regulator, that is 4 bar, and if you can get the loctite out also adjustable. To use it get the original regulator out of the fuel line.

It's a lot more expensive then the one you mention. That one might be ok to experiment with.

[gthyni]

You have to increase the CR remarkably to get usable results.

 

Yes, about 30% AFAIK

 

The inherent energy of ethanol is much lower than that of petrol, that's the main issue.

 

Not so much as I initially thought.

The main crux is that alcohols contains oxygen and thereby

is leaning out the mixture.

Properely set up mixing one should in fact get more power

from the same engine from alcohol than petrol. Dragracers

use ethanol and methanol for good reasons.

 

Still, I am happy with about the same power.

In my car I noticed no mentionable powerloss

after the ECU had adapted itself to E85.

 

Anyway, I like this idea, probably most of all I've read of in these forums.

 

Thanks, I am thinking of selling the BSA to get me focused enough to

pull this one off before next riding season

[luhbo]

I found something that could help. Eventually more under http://www.evoluzione.net/

 

It's some formulas and a rough instruction how do mod the existing regulator with some parts once sold by evoluzione cyclesports.

 

Hubert

 

Adjustable Pressure Regulator