running on Ethanol (E85)

[gthyni]

I found something that could help. Eventually more under http://www.evoluzione.net/

 

It's some formulas and a rough instruction how do mod the existing regulator with some parts once sold by evoluzione cyclesports.

 

Hubert

 

Adjustable Pressure Regulator

68242[/snapback]

 

Wow, thanks a lot, saved a copy.

 

I'll get a smallish adjustable regulator from Ebay Japan to experiment with.

to give a idea about size, the meter is 40 mm across

around 100 euro incl shipping from this shop:

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/JapanDyno-Export-Vehicle-Solution

 

now I just need a lambda (O2) sensor and some spare time.

[luhbo]

Wow, thanks a lot, saved a copy.

...

now I just need a lambda (O2) sensor and some spare time. 

68244[/snapback]

 

Paul lately posted this:

 

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php

 

This looked very interesting for me. Probably I'll buy one also.

 

Hubert

[DeBenGuzzi]

You have to increase the CR remarkably to get usable results. The inherent energy of ethanol is much lower than that of petrol, that's the main issue.

Anyway, I like this idea, probably most of all I've read of in these forums.

 

Hubert

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They did a report on it here in the news because it is government funded and the only reason E85 is cheaper is because it is subsidized by the government I know about the mideast not being a big deal locally the US gets most of its oil from Canada/South america and itself. But it actually takes more energy to produce E85 than any benefits you reap from it.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

2006 Flexible Fueled Vehicles

 

Chevrolet Monte Carlo

6 cyl, 3.5 L, Auto(4),

Gas MPG 21 31 $1380 Pollution 7.6

E85 MPG 16 24 $1578 Pollution 5.6

 

Chevrolet Impala

6 cyl, 3.5 L, Auto(4),

Gas 21 31 $1439 7.8 NA

E85 16 23 $1578 5.6

 

Chrysler Sebring 4 Door

6 cyl, 2.7 L, Auto(4),

Gas 21 28 $1439 8.1

E85 15 20 $1764 6.0

 

Chrysler Sebring 4 Door

6 cyl, 2.7 L, Auto(4),

Gas 21 28 $1439 8.1

E85 15 20 $1764 6.0

 

Chrysler Sebring Convertible

6 cyl, 2.7 L,

Gas 21 28 $1439 8.1

E85 15 20 $1764 6.0

 

Chrysler Sebring Convertible

6 cyl, 2.7 L, Auto(4),

Gas 21 28 $1439 8.1

E85 15 20 $1764 6.0

 

Dodge Stratus 4 Door

6 cyl, 2.7 L, Auto(4),

Gas 21 28 $1439 8.1

E85 15 20 $1764 6.0

 

Dodge Stratus 4 Door

6 cyl, 2.7 L, Auto(4),

Gas 21 28 $1439 8.1

E85 15 20 $1764 6.0

 

Ford Taurus

6 cyl, 3 L, Auto(4),

Gas 19 27 $1570 8.5 NA

E85 15 20 $1764 6.2

 

Dodge Caravan 2WD

6 cyl, 3.3 L, Auto(4),

Gas 19 26 $1642 8.6

E85 13 17 $2142 7.2

 

Ford Crown Victoria

8 cyl, 4.6 L, Auto(4),

Gas 17 25 $1725 9.6

E85 12 18 $2142 7.2

 

Mercury Grand Marquis

8 cyl, 4.6 L, Auto(4),

Gas 17 25 $1725 9.6

E85 12 18 $2142 7.2

 

Lincoln Town Car

8 cyl, 4.6 L,

Gasoline or E85 Gas 17 25 $1725 9.6

E85 12 18 $2142 7.2

*I deleted a bunch they go on and on*

* Based on 45% highway driving, 55% city driving, 15000 annual miles and the price of fuel used by the vehicle. You may customize these values to reflect the price of fuel in your area and your own driving patterns.

GHG- Greenhouse gas emissions expressed in CO2 equivalents. Estimates include the full fuel cycle and exclude vehicle manufacture. (U.S. Department of Energy, GREET Model, Argonne National Laboratory)

 

I had seen a report that stated without funding E85 is more expensive to produce than Petrol. I'm fine with helping the enviroment and thats really all its doing because you have to buy much more E85 over a year than you do Gasoline. I just wish there was yet a better alternative personally. Make an engine to run off of straight ethanol that would be nice

[gthyni]

still outside the US we pay local fuel prices,

in Sweden E85 costs just below SEK 8.00/litre

and petrol almost SEK 12.00/litre.

With an increase in fuel consumtion of 30%

E85 is still 15% cheaper per traveled unit.

 

Also using american cars with their inferior technology

is not a good basis for discussion. (sorry but it is painfully

true. I do like old american muscle cars for there raw power

and macho styling, but it doesn't cut it in a modern world).

 

My 11 year old BMW 525 with almost 200 bhp and 4WD

consumes less fuel than any of the listed cars!

 

With an engine optimised for ethanol, as opposed to just make

the smallest possible change to make it run OK on E85, makers

could take advantage of the higher octane of alcohol.

Compression could be raised and ignition advanced to get more

power from the same amount of fuel.

 

OK,

biogas, electro-hydrid och fuel cells might be the future - in the future

Right now with what engines I have and with what fuels I can get,

E85 is the most viable option.

[luhbo]

Only the poorest think money makes the world go 'round

 

Hubert

[gthyni]

Paul lately posted this:

 

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php

 

This looked very interesting for me. Probably I'll buy one also.

 

yes,

very nice,

and probably easiest to buy from http://www.lm-1.com/

 

but I am a bit confused:

LM-1 is 369 euros a compled instrument.

but does the a LC-1 (100 euros) + a laptop give you about the same capabilities,

or do I need XD1 gauge also?

[Paul Minnaert]

lm1 has a display and datalogging, lc1 has no logging, is basicaly the electronics to get a usable signal from a wideband sensor. So if you are on a bench, you can connect the lc1 to a computer that does the realtimedisplay and logging. The software is there to download, so you see what you get. The software was for me the point to buy the lm1. If you want a display on the bike you need a xd1 or another analog instument.

 

If you have a pocket pc there exists software that can do the display and logging.

 

with lc1, I don't know if the serial cable is with it, other 12 euro extra

[dlaing]

Regarding the fuel pressure adjustment, I think somebody on the forum tried it and discovered the range of adjustability was not great, but you may be able to increase it by hooking the breather hose to the intake manifold and the ambient air side of the pressure regulator....but this will really throw off the map.

 

I find it difficult to compare all the WBO2 sensor options:

Here is another one

http://www.widebandcommander.com/

From what I can tell it is the best for road testing and the equivalent from innovate might be the LM-1with LMA-3 and XD-1...or is just a Standalone Gauge kit eqivalent LC-1 and XD-1(ie does it have built in loggin?) ????????

[Guest ratchethack]

Regarding the fuel pressure adjustment, ...you may be able to increase it by hooking the breather hose to the intake manifold and the ambient air side of the pressure regulator....

FWIW, Just experimenting, I connected a manifold vacuum barb fitting to the reference fitting on the fuel regulator. It had no perceptible influence on any aspect of performance.

[gthyni]

options, options

I found 2 more from http://wbo2.com/

 

A small basic unit

2C0 for AUS$400 = 240 euros

 

A larger complete unit

2A0 with inputs for RPM and TPS and builtin logging

for some more aus$s (lots of options)

 

choices are confusing ....

I want it cheap and I want it now ... but extra feature is tempting

[DeBenGuzzi]

My 11 year old BMW 525 with almost 200 bhp and 4WD

consumes less fuel than any of the listed cars!

With an engine optimised for ethanol, as opposed to just make

the smallest possible change to make it run OK on E85, makers

could take advantage of the higher octane of alcohol.

Compression could be raised and ignition advanced to get more

power from the same amount of fuel.

68313[/snapback]

I totally agree I wish they would make things better I read there is a Saab that gets the same milage on E85 as Gas but didn't say which one. I drive a 6 year old Acura 2.3cl and get 30mpg(sad only sprox 6mpg worse than the bike) so I'm very against american cars right now my next car will either be a subaru, toyota or another honda of some kind. I just also am an avid fan of "pen & tellers: BullSh*t" and as things are setup right now in the united states E85 is more wasteful than helpful. I'd jump straight to driving fuel cell or E85 or even E10 if I could find it and things worked better.

Another point I saw, if the poorest think money makes the world go round then by are the rich the biggest tightwads? the man who owns the company I work for has at least 100 million in the bank he is wearing the same clothes for the last 10 years drives a 7 year old buick and never buys or gets anything unless its more than half off or free. I know of and have heard of others like this only the RICH truly think money makes the world go round.

[luhbo]

....

I just also am an avid fan of "pen & tellers: BullSh*t" and as things are setup right now in the united states E85 is more wasteful than helpful. I'd jump straight to driving fuel cell or E85 or even E10 if I could find it and things worked better... 

Another point I saw, if the poorest think money makes the world go round then ...

68351[/snapback]

 

I somehow expected something like this. I can't understand all the words you above have written, but believe me I didn't want to become too intimate or personal with this statement.

 

When I watch environmental discussions over here it's more or less the same as what I could read in this long list of how much more a car needs with the alternativ fuel and so in the end it costs more.

A lot of people now have sun collectors on their roofs, and always there are still other people who ask: do you think you could save money with it? It was expensive, wasn't it?

To become totaly offtopic: we have fridges categorised in how much energy they need. A is very good, E I think is the worst. I have a colleague who told me that it makes more sense to buy a cheap class E item and to throw it away every four years because this would cost less as what he could save energy in this four years with the A fridge. This is what I call poor people! And he is an engineer, making at least 3000,- euros per month.

 

Thx for your patience!

 

Hubert

[DeBenGuzzi]

I somehow expected something like this. I can't understand all the words you above have written, but believe me I didn't want to become too intimate or personal with this statement.

 

When I watch environmental discussions over here it's more or less the same as what I could read in this long list of how much more a car needs with the alternativ fuel and so in the end it costs more.

A lot of people now have sun collectors on their roofs, and always there are still other people who ask: do you think you could save money with it? It was expensive, wasn't it?

To become totaly offtopic: we have fridges categorised in how much energy they need. A is very good, E I think is the worst. I have a colleague who told me that it makes more sense to buy a cheap class E item and to throw it away every four years because this would cost less as what he could save energy in this four years with the A fridge. This is what I call poor people! And he is an engineer, making at least 3000,- euros per month.

 

Thx for your patience!

 

Hubert

68353[/snapback]

I wasn't trying to be personal, intense or offensive But to me somethings are a good fight and somethings could be a good fight but have a bad direction or execution.

About the enviromental issues I find it almost annoying how so many companys/nations treat the enviroment as a way to charge extremely more. sometimes it cost more because its difficult or slightly better but 'sometimes' it cost more to cost more.

I'm in no hurry to convert my goose to E85 but if the time comes its good to know you all will have figured it out and that it actually sounds easy all things considered.

[Paul Minnaert]

I think almost all available lambda options are mentioned in the ecu tread. The widebandcommander has bad software, yes it can log, but it only draws a line over time, not with rpm ar anything. download the software and you can see. The plus, is that it's not to big.

[dlaing]

I think almost all available lambda options are mentioned in the ecu tread. The widebandcommander has bad software, yes it can log, but it only draws a line over time, not with rpm ar anything. download the software and you can see. The plus, is that it's not to big.

68364[/snapback]

It now supports RPM logging.

Atleast they describe how to use it in the tutorial....but it it marked "new" so, you were correct before they improved it.

I am going to start a WBO2 options thread...