Oil Leak After Crash!

[docc]

The old airframe/powerplant mechanic who taught me some engine rebuild tricks had a sweet one for mating cases. (The air cooled Contis and Lycomings have a longitudinally split crankcase like the old Volkswagen.)

 

After spreading a thin layer of sealant over a clean surface ( no paper gasket), lay a cotton thread all the way round to the outside of any mounting holes and overlap the ends a couple centimeters. Torque in steps in a star pattern.

[belfastguzzi]

I like silicone sealant but not with a paper gasket.

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Mike, the sealer suggestion is not for putting on internal mating surface along with gasket, it's for sealing externally, without removing the casing.

[Dr Gil]

Well the silicone didn't seem to work After cleaning the offending bolt thoroughly and applying silicone sealant to the underside of the head and along the "weeping" seam and then letting it cure for 24 hours and then firing up the bike and then witnessing the EXACT SAME leakage from the bolt but with perhaps a bit less flow on along the seam, I'm sick of it all.

 

I'm ready to order the new timing cover (39 euros is soooo sweet a deal), timing gasket cover and perhaps front crank seal and just hauling the whole mess south and letting the dealership deal with replacing everything.

 

Ok, so now that I've gotten that off my chest...perhaps/maybe I applied the sealant too timidly. I resisted going heavy because a) I didn't want to make a big messy thingie on the side of my engine (even though I "stealthed it" by spraying graphite power on it and I'm not all that sure that this would be any kind of a permanent fix that would not just be failing in the near future and leaving with me having to deal with it all over again ad infiniutum.

 

Just to be on the safe side however, before I go and order a bunch of parts (which will probably turn out to not be available for the next 6 months anyhoo), rent the trailer to make the 500 mile haul and commit to this plan I think I'll pause, take a deep breath and wait to see what you guys think.

[Guest ratchethack]

Gil, I sympathize. It's one of those irritating situations. But since you seem to be willing to entertain more input, here's mine, FWIW.

 

For me, the time element (lost riding time and investment of my own time) would be the primary consideration here.

 

At this point you don't have any evidence that the timing cover is cracked. Lacking this, I wouldn't order a new one even if it's a good deal. It's just more time in shipping tacked onto an already low-probability consideration. Your investment of time and money to load up the bike for two 500 mile rental trailer rides to pay someone to do what you can do yourself is HUGE, IMHO. Who knows how long it would take to get your bike back from terra incognito?!

 

NOTE: This is just me, but my DIY philosophy holds that there are a wide variety of things that can happen to your bike behind the closed doors of an unfamiliar shop, frighteningly few of which are good things. As long as your bike's in terra incognito, you lack 2 items that I give up only on threat of imminent pain of death: Your ability to know exactly what's going on with your bike, and your control over the same.

 

Now I understand that you don't likely have either the experience or the tool inventory of your distant service shop. OTOH, you don't need any exotic tools in this case, AND you have access to a digital camera and can post shots of what you're doing. This situation provides you the ability to leverage the awesome power of the vast wealth of experience of this forum - whereby you have the ability to tap into a consensus from among the VERY BEST available anywhere, as needed. This is just me, but in this situation, I'd trust my own ability teamed up with that of this forum over an unknown entity every time, even if your closest shop was just around the corner.

 

I've never had my alternator off, but having consulted the shop manual, it appears to be straightforward, and it evidently doesn't even call for a puller. If it did call for a puller I don't already have, this'd have no bearing on my approach anyway. I'd get a new gasket, block up the engine, yank the alternator and cover, and inspect it very carefully for cracks from the inside. If it still looks solid (that'd be my high-probability expectation), I'd then meticulously clean and chemically degrease the mating surfaces and install the new gasket. In the event of a tiny crack in the timing cover, I'd use a well-proven technique to seal cracked covers that has worked like a Champ for countless others, including myself. You can J-B Weld the crack from the inside after carefully and completely degreasing the crack and surrounding area.

 

You seem to have a low tolerance for oil seepage on your engine. I'm right with you on this one. With that in mind, there'll be controversy bordering on religious fanaticism involved here , but I've proven the following to my own satisfaction on literally dozens of engines for going on 40 years now, including my Guzzi. I'd VERY LIGHTLY coat both sides of the new gasket with silicone gasket sealant (just enough to permeate the gasket and make the surface *shiny* - NO excess lumpage whatsoever) by passing it between my siliconed-up fingers, and quickly as possible, lay that new gasket in place, carefully cross-tightening the 14 (I think) cover bolts just *snug*.

 

There are 3 things I like best about silicone gasket sealant used this way: 1. Done properly, it won't ever seep or weep. 2. When necessary, it comes apart again effortlessly - without scraping. 3. The gasket can be peeled off without damage, de-greased, and re-used many times. I've probably used every sealant out there dozens of times (and still do for different applications) but have had the highest degree of success using silicone sealant as described in applications such as this.

 

I reckon it'd be cured-up enough overnight and/or by the time you got things buttoned up again to put new oil in and give 'er a leak test.

IMHO, unless it looks funny upon close inspection, there's no need whatsoever to replace the crank seal.

 

I'd do this with a high expectation of success (much more than I'd expect from any unknown service shop) and have it done by the time you dragged your bike to the first rest stop on the outbound leg of your proposed 2 round trips to terra incognito.

 

Courage, my friend! You have many experienced wrenches in your camp!

 

BAA, TJM, and YMMV

[dlaing]

Exactly what needs to be done to pull the cover?

FWIW Dr. Gil's photo does not indicate a crack.

[Dr Gil]

Exactly what needs to be done to pull the cover?

FWIW Dr. Gil's photo does not indicate a crack.

68753[/snapback]

 

It looks like removing (or at least loosening and moving out of the way to gain access) the oil cooler, removing the alternator and then removing the timing cover. It sounds easier that it looks like it may be. Much of this work has to be done in teenie-tiny spaces surrounded by frame/engine mount bits. Beyond this I don't really know. There may be more bits that must be removed...

 

Ratchethack I thank you (and everyone who has contributed to this thread) for your thoughtful and encouraging reply(s). Your rely is causing me to reasses my plan...and that's probably a good thing

 

There is a part of me who simply "wants it done" and is tired of dealing with the difficulties and simple bad luck that just keeps-on-a-comin (it's been a long year...I now have TWO dead bikes in my ramshackle garage) and to just pay someone to make it right. But there is another part of me that knew owning my first Guzzi was going to be a "hands on" sort of motorcycle life (although I never expected THIS much THIS soon!) and know that doing the work (if possible) myself will be a great learning experience and remove some more of the "mystery" about this bike.

 

I'm in it for the long run...I expect to own this bike the rest of my life. I guess I better go out and take a look at what this job really looks like.

[Guest Nogbad]

I'm with Ratchet on this one. I recently changed my crank seal behind the alternator in under 3 hours with the encouragement of the people on this forum. That was outside without any shop facilities at all apart from good hand tools.

 

These bikes are no problem to work on. In future I would only use the local dealer for those jobs I genuinely don't have the facilities to do, like an engine out job for example.

[pete roper]

The tools required for pulling the timing cover are really very minimal. A 5mm allen key, a 4mm allen key, (T-bar typed with ball ends are best.) whatever spanners are required to remove anything that hangs in front of the top of the chest, (Coils mebbe?) and a spanner or socket for the nut on the end of the crank that holds the alternator rotor on. Oh, and a 10mm allen key or key-socket and bar for removing the sub-frame bolts at the front of the chest.

 

Take off the alternator cover, (4 x 6mm allen bolts with 5mm allen heads.) Remove the stator and hang it out f the way, (3 x 5mm allen bolts with 4mm allen heads.) take off anything like the coils thats occluding the bolts at the top of the chest. Undo the rotor retaining nut an slide the rotor off the end of the crank. Undo the two sub frame allen bolts and remove 'em and their schnoore washers. After that it's simply a matter of undoing all the timing chest bolts, (The bottom six are longer than the top eight.) and prying the chest cover off. Remove the old gasket with a scraper, razor blade or some such, dress up both surfaces with a whetstone, install a new gasket and reverse the disassembley proccedure. It'll probably take you a couple of hours first time around but it's not a huge job and nothing is going to jump out at you, burst into flames or slay your first born. I'd at last try it before hiring a bloody trailer and driving 1000 miles!

 

Pete

[luhbo]

First of all loosen the ground cable at the battery. Else you may hurt yourself or other delicate parts ...

 

Hubert

 

And drain the sump before you start. After you have removed the timing cover you may get in timing problems with the oil.

[jrt]

All the stuff above this post is very good advice.

Gil, I'm glad to hear that you're in it 'for the long haul'. That's the kind of spirit that will serve you well as you push your Guzzi down the road (ok, ok- just kiddin').

 

I'll follow up on a couple of points that Pete and others have made. Looking at the book, it appears that this will be a piece of cake- easier than the older bikes even.

For blocking up the front of the motor, use a piece of plywood next to the engine, so you don't break any fins. I use bricks underneath that.

First thing- follow Hubert's advice.

When you get the stator off, tie it up out of the way with a piece of string so it doesn't hang from it's wires. Same goes for the radiator.

Put a little dielectric grease on every electrical fitting you have to dissasemble along the way. Put a little neversieze on every bolt and nut.

When you remove the old gasket- be careful not to scratch the aluminum. It's softer than you think. A razor blade works well, but I usually use a dental scraping tool as a supplement if necessary. It's slow going if the gasket sticks, so when you first start removing it, follow the old gasket as it pulls away with the razor blade. Use some permatex hylomar for gasket sealant. You may not need it, but damn, it works great. Use just a little bit.

[Dr Gil]

ok, so here goes.

 

I think I've got "all" the parts in place and I can procrastinate no longer...I have the beloved Le Mans on an "official MG jack" (rear end lifted by the lower bolts on the pork chops) and stabilized by a motorcycle jack underneath the pan and have the new gasket in hand (whoa! I really wasn't expecting a "metallic" gasket...but I guess that's what the doctor ordered). I have the oil cooler released and tied up. I am simultaneously trying to sort out some rear end lighting problems (the bike mostly slid tail first during the crash and took the most damage...now trying to make sense of the electrics and the "puzzle pieces" of the Le Mans rear end body parts...sigh).

 

And now to business. Tomorrow I'm draining the fluids, disconnecting the battery and thinking that Tuesday I'm going to dive right in, pull off everything that's left and try to replace that timing cover gasket. After a close inspection I find that the front wheel may be in the way...sigh (maybe this is the time to get that front tire replaced?). Perhaps I can work around it. It is hard not to try to deal with "everything" at once...I keep telling myself "baby steps" and it will all eventually get done...but it is hard. My fear is that while concentrating on one task I will "forget" about other stuff...it is all so confusing.

 

Everyone please stand by for "emergency" requests and questions...I'm flying by the seat of my pants here and am depending on your support. Please hang in there and wish me luck..."...we're in for a bumpy ride" (Mae West).

 

-(dr.) gilberto

[Ouiji Veck]

Go for it Doc. It'll be good for you and the Guzzi.

Ya got all the help you need right here.

( I come here for all my high drama)

I'm rooting for ya.

[callison]

The timing cover gasket is really not too hard. Don't work yourself into a tizzy over it. Just turn the front wheel to provide clearance if needed. Should take less than 90 minutes start to finish. Even for a novice mechanic.

[Baldini]

...Should take less than 90 minutes start to finish. Even for a novice mechanic....

 

Don't worry how long it takes - more important to get it right, slow & methodical is the only way on any first time job. Like Ouiji Veck says: it'll help you get to know the bike. Good luck.

 

KB

 

PS I'd give that cover a very close look for cracks whilst you got it off (dye penetrant?).

[jrt]

At the very least, clean off the cover with carb cleaner to get rid of the oil (so you can see the metal better)