Idea's

[Murray]

Was musing on what Guzzi could do to produce a modern inovative bike to get away from the crusty old tractor image. Yes I have far too much time on my hands at work.

 

I also have a VOR530 with motard wheels is great fun however the best handling bike I have ever ridden is the Aprilia RS250 can't live with the two stroke motor or the riding postion but for outright handling there is none better IMO. So it kinda struck me a Super Falcone horizontal single water cooled fuel injected or at least a Klien carb chain drive maybe with a seven speed box, tune the motor more for torque similar to the VOR the seven speed box should allow enough spread to run the occasional club track, Obioulsy tracks like Philip Island it would be a little lost. Don't go overboard on the tyres 120 front 160 rear.

 

Basically a super mono that Ducati threatened to build several years ago. If it could retian screw and locknut adjustment that would be a bonus KTM, Husaberg and I think Husqvarna do it so can't see why not. The biggest thing is to embrace one of the philophies that kept the orginal horizontal single competive for many years after the inline fours had superceded it in power years before. If you could squeeze it in under say 130kg ok I know the Aprilia is 140 ish but the VOR is 122 or so. Stick some high end suspension on it along with brakes the motor will keep the wheel base relativly long so stable with modern steering geometry and the low wieght it should turn pretty rapidly.

 

You have a bike for the sporting rider that dosen't need 150+hp with the tyre bills and insurance bills that goes with it. Would introduce a whole different market to the marke sp? Inovative yet traditional and it would probally be a neat little Buell hunter battle traxx anyone?

 

Got more money to spend want to go faster? Well here we have the Super falcone Kompressor (probally not the right Italian term). Wieght penatly would probally be around 30-40kg Pegout have proved its possible to supercharge and four stroke single and have it waltz through current emissions. No doubt there will be some competion only kits that would extract all sorts of slurpy sucky nioses out of the motor.

 

Yes I know the Yammie SZR only ever sold in finglers and toes numbers and Ducati never actually got around to making the super mono but I dunno It was a thought. So should Guzzi put me on the pay roll or tell me to stick to my day job? What do ya reckon?

[docc]

 

 

 

 

Got more money to spend want to go faster? Well here we have the Super falcone Kompressor (probally not the right Italian term). Wieght penatly would probally be around 30-40kg Pegout have proved its possible to supercharge and four stroke single and have it waltz through current emissions. No doubt there will be some competion only kits that would extract all sorts of slurpy sucky nioses out of the motor.

 

What do ya reckon? 

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Guzzi started supercharging pretty early on ( 1930 ) which was a four cylinder. Later a supercharged 250 single motor was known as 'Geralomo' after the Hunchback of Notre Dame from the look of the big hump on top of the slender little motor.

 

I like singles. Got a great deal on my GB500 when new since no one would buy them. The dealer had had it two years and was as happy as I when I rode it off. Insurance and tires would have to triple for Americans to give up the liter multis (IMO).

 

Guzzi has made a very wide variety of motors over the years: horizontal singles, upright singles, wide angle V, 90 degree V, twins , triples , fours and the eight. They must be in a terrible quandary where to go from here.

[Murray]

I would see these as a sideline or well as the other things guzzi build. I the idea is to build a fun bike to ride for just about everybody but aimed at the rider that is enthusiastic about corners. Thanks for replying anyway, the rest of the forum obiously think I'm barking mad and are too polite to piont it out.

[Martin Barrett]

I would see these as a sideline or well as the other things guzzi build. I the idea is to build a fun bike to ride for just about everybody but aimed at the rider that is enthusiastic about corners. Thanks for replying anyway, the rest of the forum obiously think I'm barking mad and are too polite to piont it out.

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You're barking mad.

 

I think it would be comercial suicide. The public don't seem to be that intrested. Fuelled by the bike press with it's obsessions of latest, lighest etc. Obviously there are the hypersports R1, 999, etc and then the sports 600s. The last attempts to move away from this haven't been great successes The Laverda 650s spring to mind and Yamaha TRX850 though this is well thought of my those in the know. and you've pointed out the last Yamaha sports single. Though they are revisiting with the supermoto varients of the XT. The press do tout the cornering abilities of the sports 400s and the 250 strokers, though I think they are no longer available new as offical imports.

 

It will be intresting to see how Triumph do with the 675 and if they can sustain the year on year development that will be required to keep pace with the other supersport 600s. Obviously Aprilla were able to break into the market with the RSV but haven't been able to sustain it and look where they are now.

 

Your concept might appeal to the more lithe (KB and Antonio) but the more lardy like myself need the space and oomph of a large bike. I found a CBR600 to be quite small, I probably would have got used to it. And a Faser 600 would out perform the Guzzi but was just too revvy The tractor like qualities of the big block Guzzi where part of its apeal to me, providing "real world" performance levels.

 

I think Guzzi have a niche with the across their air cooled V twin and can continue if part of a larger group. It's the only thing that makes them different.

[Skeeve]

Was musing on what Guzzi could do to produce a modern inovative bike to get away from the crusty old tractor image. Yes I have far too much time on my hands at work.... a Super Falcone horizontal single water cooled fuel injected or at least a Klien carb chain drive maybe with a seven speed box, tune the motor more for torque... Don't go overboard on the tyres 120 front 160 rear.... Basically a super mono that Ducati threatened to build several years ago. If it could retian screw and locknut adjustment that would be a bonus...The biggest thing is to embrace  one of the philophies that kept the orginal horizontal single competive for many years after the inline fours had superceded it in power years before.... Inovative yet traditional and it would probally be a neat little Buell hunter battle traxx anyone?.. Got more money to spend want to go faster? Well here we have the Super falcone Kompressor (probally not the right Italian term). ...So should Guzzi put me on the pay roll or tell me to stick to my day job? What do ya reckon?  (+ in a later reply) I would see these as a sideline or well as the other things guzzi build. I the idea is to build a fun bike to ride for just about everybody but aimed at the rider that is enthusiastic about corners.

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Don't quit your day job; Piaggio ain't hiring!

 

Guzzi has made a very wide variety of motors over the years: horizontal singles, upright singles, wide angle V, 90 degree V, twins , triples , fours and the eight. They must be in a terrible quandary where to go from here.

 

Yes, it's a pity that Guzzi hasn't tried to follow up on any of their early, pacesetting work. "Gee, I coulda had a V-8!" [slogan from an effective U.S. tv commercial selling carrot juice + a little ketchup in a can]

 

You're barking mad. I think it would be comercial suicide. The public don't seem to be that intrested. Fuelled by the bike press with it's obsessions of latest, lighest etc. Obviously there are the hypersports R1, 999, etc and then the sports 600s.The last attempts to move away from this haven't been great successes...It will be intresting to see how Triumph do with the 675 and if they can sustain the year on year development that will be required to keep pace with the other supersport 600s. Obviously Aprilla were able to break into the market with the RSV but haven't been able to sustain it and look where they are now....The tractor like qualities of the big block Guzzi where part of its apeal to me, providing "real world" performance levels. I think Guzzi have a niche with the across their air cooled V twin and can continue if part of a larger group. It's the only thing that makes them different.

 

Absolutely: none of this makes any sense if it's not a commercial success. Using the example of the Triumph 675 and the 'Priller RSV actually go against your argument, tho'. In the case of the Triumph, that company tried to go the i-4 route & realized (several megaEuros later, unfortunately) that they'd have to out-Japanese the Big 4 if they were ever going to do more than lag far behind; wisely, Triumph decided to hew to their own "uniqueness" and go with a product that's going to be destined for greatness (as long as they don't F' it up!): a triple with that extra bit of displacement to punch it up into the middle range (anyone else notice how the 750cc class has all but disappeared lately?) and make it an all-round great ride [i see Triumph execs sitting around going: "Sod the 600cc supersports: Suzuki's been eating all our lunches with the SV650! Look at'em move out the showroom! Let's make [b]that[/b] our target!]

The RSV argument breaks down because Aprilia lost it due to financial ridiculousness, not product failure. If Aprilia had foregone spending money they'd had to borrow on MotoGP development, or if the scooter market hadn't taken a dump because of EC-wide changes in licensing, the RSV would still be doing great in sales. The whole debacle of being taken over seriously spooks the customers; why do you think that a year ago you could buy a Coppa Italia for $2k less than today? (Hint: last year, nobody knew if your warranty would last until you hit the street at the end of the dealership's driveway!)

 

WRT Murray's original post, I've thought about this a lot myself. The "supercharged single" has a lot of merit: Guzzi needs to get more "early adopters" who'll trade-up within the brand as their riding needs mature. [This is the *major* reason BMW came out with the F650, folks!] Dual-sports have a lot of advantages in this regard: you have the cross-market growth [riders who wouldn't own a pure-street mount 'cause they can only afford one Bike] as well as the vertical [riders who want/need to start smaller before they move up to bigger bikes.] A dual-sport 550cc single based on parts from the existing engine would make a nice addition to the lineup for Guzzi. Chain drive, for lightness and gearing changeup. OHC 4v head available as higher model option, supercharging designed in from ground zero as "race kit" componentry [a la' NISMO & TRD parts from the J-Brand car companies.]

 

With Aprilia & Piaggio behind them, Guzzi can also offer a "touring scooter" done right: flat-four miniature turbodiesel, 200cc, and 200 mile range between fillups 2 up. Hmm...

 

No, Murray: Guzzi should hire me!

[DeBenGuzzi]

A V8??? no youre asking for more faliure problems so many bikes have enough trouble with just 2.... I'd love a well sorted V8 bike thats as compact as the 250 but make it an even 1000+ for me... they could sell a ton of'em but making it would cost a large fortune.

[Martin Barrett]

Using the example of the Triumph 675 and the 'Priller RSV actually go against your argument, tho'. In the case of the Triumph, that company tried to go the i-4 route & realized (several megaEuros later, unfortunately) that they'd have to out-Japanese the Big 4 if they were ever going to do more than lag far behind; wisely, Triumph decided to hew to their own "uniqueness" and go with a product that's going to be destined for greatness (as long as they don't F' it up!): a triple with that extra bit of displacement to punch it up into the middle range (anyone else notice how the 750cc class has all but disappeared lately?) and make it an all-round great ride [i see Triumph execs sitting around going: "Sod the 600cc supersports: Suzuki's been eating all our lunches with the SV650! Look at'em move out the showroom! Let's make [b]that[/b] our target!]

The RSV argument breaks down because Aprilia lost it due to financial ridiculousness, not product failure. If Aprilia had foregone spending money they'd had to borrow on MotoGP development, or if the scooter market hadn't taken a dump because of EC-wide changes in licensing, the RSV would still be doing great in sales. The whole debacle of being taken over seriously spooks the customers; why do you think that a year ago you could buy a Coppa Italia for $2k less than today? (Hint: last year, nobody knew if your warranty would last until you hit the street at the end of the dealership's driveway!)

 

 

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That exactly was my point of bringing up the Trumpet 675. The Daytona and the TT before it whilst hailed as probably the finest handling in the 600 supersports group, weren't able to match the the big 4 in the engine department. So have gone for a 675 triple to give power of a 750 in the package of a 600, with the difference of being a triple. Obviously Triumph are making triples their signature throughout the whole range. There isn't anything particularly new or exciting about it but has brought several things together. On preview launches it appeared to be a "big" step forward in the supersports 600 class, but the big 4 have now revealed next years models and they to have moved on also. It is arguedly the most competative of all classes and requires year on year "improvement" which needs the investment and development funded by sales. They seem to have allowed the 955i (I could be tempted to fly the flag) to have slipped into the sporty sports tourer role and nolonger trying to compete head on in the hypersports class.

 

The RSV was perhaps the latest hot thing affordablity top end and reliablity of the Japanese, the exotica, handling and drive of a Ducati. But the R1 replaced the thunderace, followed by GSX1000,ZX10R and bigger Fireblade and the Ducatis have got uglier but better where the RSV hasn't made the big changes and as you point out been hampered by the other financial aspects.

 

The RSV showed that people would go for something different (60 degree V twin). Where they didn't go for the Laverdas or TRX in numbers. But also shows that the same fickle buyers will quickly move on elsewhere to this years hot thing. The RSV & and the 916 are the only ones that seem to have upset the post 1970's world order. Harley and BMW have their niches. I think BMW are moving out of the cruiser market (good thing too they were especially ugly) The F650 seemed to take a while to get established but has proven to be a success. I did hear that Triumph weren't yet running at a profit but I don't know if this is true or not.

 

I still don't think people will go for the ultra light weight sports bike. Those that are moving away from the sports bike are going dual sports. On track you can argue the lightweight but on the road you (well at least I) can't corner that hard (safely) and can make it up on the straights.

 

You could be right with the Super Scooter idea, would lend itself to Tenni colours

[Orson]

You could be right with the Super Scooter idea, would lend itself to Tenni colours 

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I'm still trying to figure out if that was a subliminal jab at Tenni owners <_ src="%7B___base_url___%7D/uploads/emoticons/default_tongue.png" alt=":P">

 

I read an interesting quote in Motorcyclist magazine that there were rumors that Aprilia might be #2 in the hierarchy behind Moto Guzzi. That's news to me.

[Martin Barrett]

I'm still trying to figure out if that was a subliminal jab at Tenni owners <_ src="%7B___base_url___%7D/uploads/emoticons/default_tongue.png" alt=":P">

 

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On this occasion no. With the front fairing/leg shield of a scooter that and the front mud guard would be green taking the effect of the dustbin fairings, with a silver engine bay main body with obviously a suede seat. Could look great.

[Orson]

On this occasion no. With the front fairing/leg shield of a scooter that and the front mud guard would be green  taking the effect of the dustbin fairings, with a silver engine bay main body with obviously a suede seat. Could look great.

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I'm not sure I believe you

I'll let it slide...this time.

just no more references with the words Tenni & scooter in the same sentence, please

[Martin Barrett]

I'm not sure I believe you

I'll let it slide...this time.

just no more references with the words Tenni & scooter in the same sentence, please

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Not even with a 500cc supercharged engine?

[Orson]

Not even with a 500cc supercharged engine?

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those super scooters look just like a real motorcycle from the front. I'm continually tricked into waving to these pseudo motorcyclists!

Damn thee super scooteristi!

[Murray]

Aprilia's RSV out sells Ducati's 999 at a ratio of 4 to 1 it wasn't Aprilias big bike range that let it down. The big bike range only represented 20% of aprilias production the changes in the scooter market and money sunk into Moto GP its what cost it. It was a shame they didn't contiune with superbike racing IMO and let Honda grind everyone else into the ground finacially in Moto GP racing.

 

I duno I think it would only ever sell in modest numbers but name a current Guzzi that doesn't sell in modest numbers. Dunno maybe should get off my rear and build it myself, Except we don't have the roads around here to really exploit it.

[Guzzirider]

When you walk around the museum in Mandello you can't help being wowed by the purposeful and no nonsense look of the race and road bikes for the last 60 years or so.

 

Guzzi used to have the cream of innovators and designers- I just wonder who designs the bikes these days.

 

They could do with some young exciting designers- I know that commercial pressures have dictated things so boring bikes (Griso excepted) like the Norge are launched instead of sports bikes but lets get some innovation and excitement back into the brand.

 

No point in building off the wall singles- a very limited market- just look what happened to Gilera's new Saturno about 15 years back.

 

Guzzi need to build bikes that are lusted after and not dismissed as old man's bikes. There is a place for Brevas, Grisos and cruisers in the range but I am still hoping (maybe unrealistically) for a proper road legal sports bike.

 

If not I can feel a Ghezzi Brian arriving- at least they have shown what can be done even with the old motor by shaving weight off the chassis.

 

I can only dream!

 

Guy