Lean Or rich fuel mixture

[Alex-Corsa]

Have not found anything on the subject so if anyone has the relative experience to the subject , it would be a big help to hear.

Installed a chip I had laying over here for sometime in my Sporti (yes 96-98 models had chips instead of totally "closed" box ECU.

That's due to 2 reasons.

1. Have already got a Mistral X-over and open exausts

2. the "older" chip (though from a Guzzi tunner) was working with faults in idle (hiccups-engine off)and when closing throtle after some constant acceleration.The injectors though were cleaned and synchronized but these problems just kept on and on. I could feel also that something was going on wrong with the acceleration of the bike but mostly what I felt- not measured.

 

After installing the oter chip that is made to work on Open exausts and crossover+ open air filter. The bike worked excellent on start up ,idle no matter of hot or cold engine , pulled better than before, there was though a bit of some engine bahaviour of too much fuel mixture in about 2400-2600 rpm and that was it.

In engine start up was much smell of the exaust gases (more than before the installation of the chip)

 

The worst thing of all came afterwards when I went to the gas station and refuelled. At about 12-14 lt/100km (mixed driving -city highway speeds)my jaw droped to the floor.I don't have a damn Ferrari

 

 

Now what's wrong with it??

I hva adjusted the potentiometer just above the chip in my ECU unit to a more lean potition(turning it 120' of the 135' that is maximum lean) than it was before (middle).

Now the engine runs much better than any time everywhere and especially the idle, well I have not measured the fuel consumption yet but will do shortly.

 

There is this trick with the spark plugs where you can see if you run too rich or too lean , if you runn tooo rich the plugs get a bit white?? Does anyone know.?

 

What's finnally more dangerous for the engine ?(until I get my hands on measurment tools to try fine tune it) Runnig lean (less fuel ) or rich mixture (to much fuel) If the correct balance has not being achieved at the time speaking?

 

I hope I didn't screw up anything

 

Thanks

 

P.S. When on idle (cold motor) if I rev the gas to 2-3500 Rpm , I see black smoke coming out of the exaust, now how messed up is my engine ,can someone explain?. (with wrm engine I have not tested anything yet)

[Dan M]

Have not found anything on the subject so if anyone has the relative experience to the subject , it would be a big help to hear.

Installed a chip I had laying over here for sometime in my Sporti (yes 96-98 models had chips instead of totally  "closed" box ECU.

That's due to 2 reasons.

1. Have already got a Mistral X-over and open exausts

2. the "older" chip (though from a Guzzi tunner) was working  with faults in  idle (hiccups-engine off)and when closing throtle after  some constant acceleration.The injectors though were cleaned and synchronized but these problems just kept on and on. I could feel also that something was going on wrong with the acceleration of the bike  but mostly what I felt- not measured.

 

After installing the oter chip that is made to work on Open exausts and crossover+ open air filter. The bike worked excellent on start up ,idle  no matter of hot or cold engine , pulled better than before, there was though a bit of some engine bahaviour of too much fuel mixture in about 2400-2600 rpm and that was it.

In engine start up was much smell of the exaust gases (more than before the installation of the chip)

 

The worst thing of all came afterwards when I went to the gas station and refuelled. At about 12-14 lt/100km  (mixed driving -city highway speeds)my jaw droped to the floor.I don't have a damn Ferrari 

  Now what's wrong with it??

I hva adjusted the potentiometer just above the chip in my ECU unit to a more lean potition(turning it 120' of the 135' that is maximum lean) than it was before (middle).

  Now the engine runs much better than any time everywhere and especially the idle, well I have not measured the fuel consumption yet but will do shortly.

 

There is this trick with the spark plugs where you can see if you run too rich or too lean , if you runn tooo rich the plugs get a bit white?? Does anyone know.?

 

What's finnally more dangerous for  the engine ?(until I get my hands on measurment tools to try fine tune it) Runnig lean (less fuel ) or rich mixture (to much fuel) If the correct balance has not being achieved at the time speaking?

 

I hope I didn't screw up anything 

 

Thanks

 

P.S. When on idle (cold motor)  if I rev the gas to 2-3500 Rpm , I see  black smoke coming out of the exaust, now how messed  up is my engine   ,can someone explain?. (with wrm engine I have not tested anything yet)

70324[/snapback]

 

Sounds like you've got it way rich. Black smoke, fumes that will make your eyes water, that's a very rich mixture. I'd bet if you pulled your plugs they would be black and sooty. The question is if it is rich at all throttle openings & loads. A really rich mixture will put gas in the oil too. Pull your dipstick and check for fuel odor and really black, thin oil. This condition will snow-ball (more fuel in the oil, more blow by, more rich running) In the long run you can damage things. Too lean is worse, high combustion temps of a very lean mixture can be dangerous to your motor as well. Try to get it dialed in so your plugs are light tan.

[dlaing]

Here is a webpage for reading plugs:

http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

But you could be both too rich and too lean...or the timing could be off, or the general tuning...

Here is a photo of a nice plug:

A white plug indicates too hot. Usually because of being too lean, but timing and throttle balance are also key.

 

Also, I noticed MPH has posted some groovy chip editing application, ECU Map Editor, for your bike(not for 15M):

http://www.mphcycles.com/Technical/TECHNICAL.htm

Does anyone know how to use this?

I assume you need some special serial cable, or you have to pull the chip and put it in some mysterious box and connect it to the computer.

[Steve G.]

Too lean a mixture is something to be avoided, as excess combustion chamber heat has resulted [rarer than most think] in melted pistons.

Too rich a mixture can have a long term problem on your engine, by actually washing the oil off of your cylinder walls, increasing piston ring/cylinder wear.

Ciao, Steve G.

[Alex-Corsa]

Thanks for the replies to all of you yes that's very correct, I have changed back to the other one, it was running more O.K. (concerning the rich-lean problem) SInce the spark plug indications were looking about like the photo of the normal one.Though there is a worse problem on keeping the idle.Obviusly it isn't the best for the job but I will fix this soon (since I want to keep my mistrals on)

 

As I said , well can anyone pin-point me to where I can find a proper chip for this setup? Perhaps this Creedon thing, where can I find this.

 

Heve received my Carbtune today and after re synchronizing the injectors I'll see what's up. Definatelly I'll have to change this chip thingie.

he question is if it finnally would be better to instal a PCIII as well on my 16M, this need of when changing the setup to find a correct chip and so on has got me tired.

There is of course the "other" solution to have data loggers plus software hardware to create "own" chips for the setups I use, well in this situation I don't even know what would all these be so here you are "dlaing" give me a guide of all these thingies the only ones I know are here

and Rapid bike (what's this? , is it any good?),Direct-link

Since in life I arrange all on my own , I can get my hands into this as well I just need some guidance where to start.

Cheers

[dlaing]

don't even know what would all these be so here you are "dlaing" give me a guide of all these thingies the only ones I know are  here

and Rapid bike (what's this? , is it any good?),Direct-link

Since in life I arrange all on my own , I can get my hands into this as well I just need some guidance where to start.

Cheers 

70373[/snapback]

The first thing is to double check that you are properly tuned, with proper TPS as specified by the chip maker, and valves are properly set, and throttle bodies balanced.

If that does not work, look at other options.

 

Cliff's MY16M would have the most potential.

 

Many people are happy with Will Creedon's chip.

try

creedon

@

cts.com

 

PCIIIs could easily help if you are near an authorized dynojet tuninglink dyno.

 

Rapid bike says it is for the Centauro, so it may or maynot work

 

DirectLink is not for the 1.6 ECU.

 

The softare at MPH is free. Does anyone know how to flash chips????????

That would be the route I would look to first.

I tried the program with a tuneboy map file and it could read the files, but it put everything out of order. That should not be a problem with your ECU.

If you can flash your own chips, you could save money for a wideband controller and a CO meter....or a dyno session from a good operator.

[Alex-Corsa]

The first thing is to double check that you are properly tuned, with proper TPS as specified by the chip maker, and valves are properly set, and throttle bodies balanced.

If that does not work, look at other options.

Yep that's the "stage" I'm now,

Cliff's MY16M would have the most potential.

 

Not bad as I have heared, it is on concideration

Many people are happy with Will Creedon's chip.

try

creedon

@

cts.com

 

Doing this in the next 24hours , many thanks for the addy

PCIIIs could easily help if you are near an authorized dynojet tuninglink dyno.

Nope that's not possible (AFA

IK)

 

Rapid bike says it is for the Centauro, so it may or maynot work 

 

DirectLink is not for the 1.6 ECU.

But the Cantauro has a 16M thing ...I think...

 

The softare at MPH is free. Does anyone know how to flash chips????????

That would be the route I would look to first.

 

I know a shop in the "neighbourhood that does such stuff.

 

If you can flash your own chips, you could save money for a wideband controller and a CO meter....or a dyno session from a good operator.

70379[/snapback]

OH yes?? Well that's also good news.I like to "screw" things up myself , than letting others do it for me..

[dlaing]

OH yes?? Well that's also good news.I like to "screw" things up myself , than letting others do it for me..  

70430[/snapback]

DIY is generally my philosophy, too.

It is just tough without Dyno and analysis tools.

But I am confident that without WBO2, CO, CO2, NOx and HC meters, I can still get the bike to perform better than a well tuned carb bike.

I wonder if I can take the bike to the local automotive emmision control center and pay them twenty bucks just to sniff it at idle and a couple of higher RPMS.

My current plan is to score a WBO2 and a CO meter off of ebay so I can get it to run like a well tuned EFI bike.

Emission meters could be a good investment, because unlike TuneBoy and PCIII, I can also use WBO2 and CO meters for any future bikes, and my car, too.

 

 

 

PS I wonder why Rapid Bike is listed for Centauro, but not the other 1.6Marelli?????

In anycase, it is probably just like PCIII, but missing features like TuningLink.

DirectLink would be good, they don't make it for the 1.6Marelli.

[luhbo]

...

I assume you need some special serial cable, or you have to pull the chip and put it in some mysterious box and connect it to the computer.

70335[/snapback]

 

Yes, it works this way, with the mystic box. I once gave a valid WM15 eeprom to a colleague to see what is inside. He put it in his magig box, and after that it was as virginal as it was once sold. Totally empty. That's what I call magic.

 

For the 16M there are other applications also, e.g. Wayne Orwig's ECUEdit. A quick search will bring it up.

 

Hubert

[luhbo]

...

But I am confident that without WBO2, CO, CO2, NOx and HC meters, I can still get the bike to perform better than a well tuned carb bike.

....

70441[/snapback]

 

I doubt this. On carbs you still have Bernoulli working and helping but, he died long before EFI was invented

 

 

Hubert

[Alex-Corsa]

DIY is generally my philosophy, too.

You should be my neighbour then or vise versa.

 

You must have seen today!!!, the right manifold rubber just cut over like a conserve box and this injection had this loud spitting sound.

The rubbers were quite new(2 months) since these people at Twins and parts in Berlin changed my older (and better quality ones that didn't need to be changed)

 

I have sensed of how bad quality they were and my order from Agostini for a 4 (pairs....well I thought just in case.... )nice ones is on the way, a bit unfortunatelly though cause the crapy one gave up this morning.(I couldn't calculate that/!**#$)

 

I was in the middle of the street and choosed to walk to the nearest tool shop(after this rubber cut almost in half) where I bought this super strong tape,which worked wonder.

 

Synchronised the TBs with the carbtune , works better now.It started to be fun fixing the bike after sometime.(after being so pi$$ed about these faulty rubbers these guys sold me.)

 

Y' see with the right tools job gets easy. I like doing it myself because I don't follow "cliches" like most mechanics do, so the result is better, since I always know what I am doing.. That's also a reason I bought a Guzzi.

 

But I am confident that without WBO2, CO, CO2, NOx and HC meters, I can still get the bike to perform better than a well tuned carb bike.

 

WBO2 and a CO meter off of ebay so I can get it to run like a well tuned EFI bike. 

Emission meters could be a good investment, because unlike TuneBoy and PCIII, I can also use WBO2 and CO meters for any future bikes, and my car, too.

 

That's sounds good

These are the data loggers(??) that tell you what's happening to the combustion chamber of the bike after reading the exaust fumes??

Do you mean

this one from NGK?

Of cource there are these as well

1.WBo2

2.WBo2 commander

3.WBO2

4.WBo2 Daytona

(anything else??)

And after that you can go back and correct the mapping at exact spots,right??

 

I guess I can use it on mine as well right?

 

 

PS I wonder why Rapid Bike is listed for Centauro, but not the other 1.6Marelli?????

In anycase, it is probably just like PCIII, but missing features like TuningLink.

DirectLink would be good, they don't make it for the 1.6Marelli.

70441[/snapback]

 

(edit) Well in this list here (BeFaster the 16M it IS supported from the VDSTS Vehicle Diagnostic

They aell also the Dircet link (dunno the relation between these two :VDSTS & D-L )

 

Well what I have in mind to have is a thingie , magic box,what ever that would enable me to flash my own chips from the maps that I have created with a software (which is that?) and or have helped to created with the of a Data logger?? (or what that would be). Right?

So what should be on shopping list? hehe.

 

Isn't this the prosceedure of the how (tunning) things go.??

 

P.S.Technoresearch has a wide range of tunning thingies , but which one(s) or set help do all the above ?

[dlaing]

I doubt this. On carbs you still have Bernoulli working and helping but, he died long before EFI was invented 

Hubert

70469[/snapback]

I have always thought that a hybrid of fuel injection and Bernoulli venturi carburetion would be the best, but I used to have a hyundai that did something like that, (electronic controlled carburetion) and it was not all good.

 

Stilll I am going to give smoothing the map a shot. I can't believe all those moutains and valleys programmed into the ECU hold up to real world bike variations and modificatons.

But maybe I am wrong

And if I am wrong, it is going to difficult to pinpoint adjacent cells that need great variations...in which case I will need to buy the WBO2 and or CO meters.

It will be fun riding around with a big CO meter in my tank bag!

I am convinced that measuring CO is the way to go on tight budget.

It just takes a lot longer to get data than with WBO2, but it less likely to be misleading.

[dlaing]

P.S.Technoresearch has a wide range of  tunning thingies , but which one(s) or set help do all the above ?

70488[/snapback]

the VDST does not map the ECU

The direct Link DOES map the ECU, but not on your bike

They sell PLX WBO2 controllers, but I think you can find better prices elsewhere.

My feeling on WBO2 is that I am not sure how accurately it inferes the incoming A:F ratio from the limited gases that it sniffs.

I am not as skeptical as this guy, Marc Salvisberg, but close.

http://66.47.68.116/dyno/4gasEGAvso2sensor.html

What is interesting is that he and Derek Capito are nearly lone voices of dissent in a world that hypes up the value of WBO2 controllers.

Even if you try to google informatin on it, you end up right back here at V11lemans.com, obviously on the cutting edge

[dlaing]

this one from  NGK?

Of cource there are these as well

1.WBo2

2.WBo2 commander

3.WBO2

4.WBo2 Daytona

(anything else??)

And after that you can go back and correct  the mapping at exact spots,right??

 

I guess I can use it on mine as well right?

 

70488[/snapback]

Checkout me talking to myself about it here:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6602

There should be no reason you can't do it too.

Some, like the NGK and Zenotronix don't do onboard logging, which I think is pretty critical for us without dynos, but there are work arounds like laptops in your tankbag, etc.

Keep in mind the WBO2 is going to suck up around 1.0 to 1.5 Amps.

[Alex-Corsa]

Checkout me talking to myself about it here:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6602

There should be no reason you can't do it too.

Some, like the NGK and Zenotronix don't do onboard logging, which I think is pretty critical for us without dynos, but there are work arounds like laptops in your tankbag, etc.

Keep in mind the WBO2 is going to suck up around 1.0 to 1.5 Amps.

70495[/snapback]

 

Well actually there is good package from Technoresearch here This VDSTS-standard version seems a value for money package.It is clearlly described in the page that the following can be adjusted on the bike:

• Reset Service Light, and Malfunction Indicator Light.

• Adjust Idle/Fuel Trim Values.

• Reset TPS (Throttle Position Sensor)

here is though more general on that as it is just stated that with is software a number of parameters can be diagnosed and manipulated (edited).(Fahrzeuges können eine Vielzahl von Motorparametern abgerufen und verändert werden)

Most importantly it can be connected to me PDA

O.K that Direct-link doesn't do the 16M of mine but how about this? Rapid BikeIn the bike applications there is the Centauro 96-01 mod. listed.This is as close as mine and pricing is Cool.

I'll proceed on some questions and go for it.

"Scan and Flash" operation is about to start/

 

 

 

P.S. any other flashing instruments for bikes out there?