Dynojet tuning of PC III

[RacerX]

I disagree. 100% throttle is where its at!

And it is the only way I can come close to keeping up with you...fall back in the curves, wait for the straights, then hit the WOT! and I need every pony!

 

So my idea is to map the ECU to run leaner when air is cool, I may be totally wrong. But it seems like a good idea to me.

 

I can assure you, you spend less then 2% of the life of your bike so far, at 100%.

The entire rest of the map is 98% more critical, agreed.

 

Leaner when cooler is exactly opposite of what W/M (M/M) has programmed the ECU, and surely they have no idea what they are doing.

[dlaing]

OK, so if it has nothing to do with the weather, I would suggest Brian should do a compression test, because he should not have lost that much power.

[Guest ratchethack]

I can assure you, you spend less then 2% of the life of your bike so far, at 100%.

  The entire rest of the map is 98% more critical, agreed.

 

  Leaner when cooler is exactly opposite of what W/M (M/M) has programmed the ECU, and surely they have no idea what they are doing.

71099[/snapback]

Hear, hear! I can attest to the fact that I spend probably less than .00000002% of my riding time at WOT. Maybe less. This realization dawned on me when I was road-testing a custom 1/3-twist progressive throttle cam. I found that I virtually NEVER hit WOT. A few of the cams I tried didn't even allow WOT. I didn't miss having WOT ability for months of riding. For my purposes, I seemed to have more than enough throttle response at about half WOT, very occasionally a little more. Go ahead, call me a Road Geez...

 

For this reason, I've thought about the benefits of doing dyno pulls for a custom map at half-throttle, which would seem to provide much more valuable "real-world" benefits. Never heard of anyone doing it before, but this wouldn't be a reason for me not to do it...

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV.

[dlaing]

You should have bought a Ural

[Guest ratchethack]

You should have bought a Ural 

71107[/snapback]

OK, I'm not THAT much of a Road Geez...

 

I reckon I use more of the mid- and upper-mid range of throttle than the average bear...I hit yellow and red lines often, and the rev-limiter, too. I just find the "mid-throttle" range more than adequate to get me there the way I ride. I find a smoooooth riding style more compatible with the nature of the Guzzi, as opposed to a "jackhammer" style that seems to suit many of the the Japper Superbike and "stupid bike" riders.

 

Come to think of it, I probably have little to no need for the large valve head or 'Sport cam' either... I might have a broader, higher torque curve in the midrange with smaller valves, slightly lower compression, and calmer cam at the expense of top end - which would suit me just fine.

 

I think Todd's point is a good one. I suspect he knows a thing or 2 about "real-world" riding conditions that might not occur to some of us.

 

On the road, from a practical standpoint, IMHO, WOT is not only not justifiable in all but the most remote and extreme situations, but with 65 ft./lbs. of torque on tap at 5500 RPM, I just find it unnecessary. If I wanted more raw acceleration than I get riding it the way I do, I reckon I'd have bought a bike with higher output capability.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[dlaing]

I can assure you, you spend less then 2% of the life of your bike so far, at 100%.

  The entire rest of the map is 98% more critical, agreed.

71099[/snapback]

Just because I spend most of the elsewhere does not mean that it is proportionally less critical.

When I am at WOT, I want the 2HP.

If I am at half throttle and need an extra 2HP, I just give it a little more throttle.

I want my bike remapped everywhere to ensure the proper mixture for rideability and engine longevity.

If I am riding with 16 to 1 Air Fuel ratio, at cruising and at WOT, which is more critical? the Cruising throttle position or the WOT throttle position?

One of them is more likely to burn a valve.

Which one, I don't know, but I do know enough not to brush off the importance of tuning for WOT.

[moto]

For this reason, I've thought about the benefits of doing dyno pulls for a custom map at half-throttle, which would seem to provide much more valuable "real-world" benefits.  Never heard of anyone doing it before, but this wouldn't be a reason for me not to do it...  

I generally do it at all throttle positions the customer and the ECU or lying box will allow tuning at. In the case of the PCIIIUSB, this would be 0, 2, 5, 10, 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100%.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[moto]

Disagree. Power measurements are a direct proponent of air (and humidity) supplied to the motor. The dyno has "correction" software, but it is obvious that lower (denser) altitudes and low air temps will yield higher numbers.

The dyno's SAE (or other) corrections cannot compensate for the ECU's possibly incorrect temp and pressure trims (nor should they).

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[moto]

Every peak power "pull", as shown, is at 100% throttle... which is NOT the strong point of the PCIII.

Certainly, a peak power run would have to, by definition, be at 100% throttle. But to my knowlege, neither the Dynojet dyno nor the PCIII limit you to 100% throttle runs/tuning. Or are you saying that for some reason, the PCIII does not allow for tuning of 100% throttle very well?

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[moto]

One dyno I believe is STD and the other SAE

What is "STD"?

The ECU allows for more fuel when the engine and air are cold. Once you get to around freezing there is some enrichment.

But I am not sure that is a good thing. I suspect it will just make the bike run cooler and it will make less power and efficiency.

It should make it run hotter, as the correct amount of fuel will be provided to match the denser air.

So my idea is to map the ECU to run leaner when air is cool, I may be totally wrong. But it seems like a good idea to me.

I don't recommend it, unless it is known to be too rich.

Just want to keep it running smoothly and don't want to burn any valves. 

Best not lean it out with no evidence that it needs it.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[Guest ratchethack]

I generally do it at all throttle positions the customer and the ECU or lying box will allow tuning at. In the case of the PCIIIUSB, this would be 0, 2, 5, 10, 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100%.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

71112[/snapback]

Derek, I'm a rank neophyte when it comes to FI, the Guzzi being my first, though I've owned 11 prior bikes, all carbed (still have one). Since the "off the shelf" PC III map I'm currently running (from someone else's Guzzi with similar config.) seems to work about as well as I can imagine (using only my "seat-o-the-pants dyno"), I've felt no need for a custom map. Ultimately, I'd like to have a custom map done.

 

Please forgive my ignorance. My interest is sincere.

 

What you indicated above makes complete sense to me. I reckon it'd be the best "real-world" approach to dyno tuning for my purposes. My question is this - Is it common practice anywhere to do dyno pulls at many "real-world" throttle openings as you indicated, or is this unique to your approach?

 

I visited your site. Where is your shop located?

 

TIA.

[moto]

What you indicated above makes complete sense to me.  I reckon it'd be the best "real-world" approach to dyno tuning for my purposes.  My question is this - Is it common practice anywhere to do dyno pulls at many "real-world" throttle openings as you indicated, or is this unique to your approach?

I would say there are a few shops where this is likely to be common practice. AF1, Wheelsmith/Factory, Evoluzione and World Class Tuning come to mind. If you have a shop in mind, just ask them if they tune other than 100% throttle. Ask them to see the before and after runs for a bike that had all throttle positions tuned. Ignore the "air fuel ratio" trace and review the differences in the HP and torque curves.

I visited your site.  Where is your shop located?

I'm in Redwood City, CA 94063.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[Guest ratchethack]

Thanks, Derek.

 

It's been a long time since I stopped in there, but are you by any chance the shop on El Camino Real south of Woodside Road in RWC?

[Alex-Corsa]

Alex

 

You will find that your Sport Corsa is very similar- with a full Termignoni system and an uprated EFI chip my old one only made 80bhp too.

 

There is not much difference except the gearbox between the V11 motor and the 1100 Sport motor.

 

Guy 

 

Dunno , I have measured mine in current specifications Mistral Open Crossover +Exaust + K/N filter wearing a Dynotec chip (though seemed a bit lean for that configuration and had some bugs with engine stalling sometimes -it was my "old")

Got a 82PS , now I have another more responsive "open" chip I'll have to try a Dyno and see. Same time we measured a friend of mine (also ) Corsa, with the original Termis ,that came from the factory, on and unknown chip that had ( with rev limmiter set to 7600 or so) produced a close 85Ps (also K.N filter plate on the box-)

Will soon find the curves (forgot them in Germany... )

Anyway I just mention , It ssems to me that Guzzi motors are Same but different. ,or different but same

[RacerX]

When I am at WOT, I want the 2HP. If I am at half throttle and need an extra 2HP, I just give it a little more throttle. If I am riding with 16 to 1 Air Fuel ratio, at cruising and at WOT, which is more critical?

No one will EVER recognize 2hp... and you will NEVER "cruise" at WOT, can't be done... moot point. If your point is correct mapping at all throttle settings, then it's quite a redundant comment as well... who doesn't. Dyno pulls at WOT/100% are done to mainly show power outputs, not necessarily A/F info as one will not spend much time there. Is it critical... of course, which is why Tuning Link/the PCIII map there. Quit the debate now Dave... get out and ride.

 

But to my knowlege, neither the Dynojet dyno nor the PCIII limit you to 100% throttle runs/tuning. Or are you saying that for some reason, the PCIII does not allow for tuning of 100% throttle very well?

No.

 

The dyno's SAE (or other) corrections cannot compensate for the ECU's possibly incorrect temp and pressure trims (nor should they).

True. My only point was that depending on temperature, humidity and altitude there will be different dyno/power results, even with the same bike. Every dyno/location are different, as I'm sure you'd agree. We're saying the same thing.