Dynojet tuning of PC III

[moto]

Weather conditions vary the results, so I want to make sure my map is not pinging.

Hmm, I'm not sure how you could ever get the map to ping, although the engine might...

I plan on getting a WBO2 sensor to optimize it better than my natural senses can.

The greatest limitation of my senses is the inability to differentiate right/left cylinder differences.

I think the WBO2 will help with that.

Two of them with logging might.

I'd love to see Derek monitor WBO2  readings parallel with his O2 readings and CO readings, to see if the WBO2 follows more in line with the more useful CO readings.

I would love to do it. Does anyone want to let me borrow the equipment? It must be noted that this comparison will not demonstrate the problems related to input voltage, probe temperature, pressure variations or transient response, as in order for the EGA to work, testing must be done steady state. The way to include those problems in a comparison would be to "Autotune" (with PC or TuneBoy), let an ECU (such as Cliffs) tune itself in closed loop mode, or manually tune using a WBO2 sensor and then see by how much I could improve the mapping from there.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[moto]

I guess it is kinda like choosing a religion.

Santa, Mohammad, and Jesus all have something good to offer for believers.

But the important thing is not to over-analyze and just have faith.

Otherwise you'll be like me and spend eternity in limbo.

If you choose Tuning Link or Factory Pro, you'll get better results either way...all you need is faith and $$$$, results are proportionally related.

If I had more $$$$, without question, I would get the Mike Rich porting, hotter cam, Carrillo rods, lighter better pistons, engine balancing, and then head up to MotoLab and give them $2000 to tune almost every point on the map to the nearest HP.

I can only imagine what a sweet ride that would be.

I have little faith and less money, so I am going the DIY route....and I am getting closer to perfection.

Marching forward with Derek's and Todd's advice, and with a little help from the available PCIII maps on the internet, I march forth like a soldier in to war, wearing a crucifix, star of david, ahnk, Om, star and moon of Islam, etc.

Ratchet, I think TuneBoy has your DIY name written all over it.

Realizing that this post was mostly in fun, I still have to say that faith based tuning is precisely what I am against. Don't you want to know that the engine is running a particular way rather than believing it? While I understand and agree that there are no absolutes, it is possible to proceed based on evidence rather than faith. Gathering the evidence requires the equipment most suitable to the task. Would you go have some tea leaves read in order to determine the state of tune of your engine? To each his own, but I don't see it as likely, nor likely to be accurate (you never know I guess). Likewise, you are not likely to have your local shamanic practitioner perform some ritual to to get your engine to run better (unless the "ritual" involves brake dynos, EGAs and maybe flow meters). People do seem to get nearly as defensive about their faith based choices with regards to tuning as they do about their choice in religions (so far, short of killing each other).

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[dlaing]

Realizing that this post was mostly in fun, I still have to say that faith based tuning is precisely what I am against. Don't you want to know that the engine is running a particular way rather than believing it?

71930[/snapback]

Absolutely! I suppose my comment was aimed at you and Todd, following Ratchethack's comment that he was concerned he might have to agree with his tuner.

I suppose I subscribe to the philosophy of never agreeing with anyone completely, therefore I can only trust you and Todd through faith, because my logic, or lack there of, disagrees with both of you on some points.

The points I disagree with you are on the importance of tuning at different weather conditions, so my map doesn't ping Just kidding. I know that any quality map that you would do would result in a ping free mixture at just about all weather conditions.

But I don't think you could maximize power to 1hp and retest to the same optimal power at a temperature 50º hotter or colder.

This is not your fault, other than not having a 5 million dollar climate controlled dyno booth/wind tunnel.

So, I believe there are some advantages to road tuning over dyno tuning.

Am I going to be able to optimize to 1HP, No I am not. 2HP, No......but I may get lucky in a few places, and the bike will run better and better, the more I tweek it.

It is more for kicks than for having an excellently mapped bike, and maybe after 10 years of tuning, it will be optimized to 2HP and all weather conditions.

I guess that does require a bit of faith.

The other advantage of the do it yourself road test method is adaptabilty to modifications.

And so I don't get too far off track, I should set up and an appointment with you within the next couple years, for just an hour or two on the dyno.

I see your $100 per hour rate is very reasonable, and I would not have to spend many hundreds of dollars.

I just hope I don't already owe you.

[Alex-Corsa]

He should theoretically make better power, and the dynojet dyno will correct the HP to make appear lower.

But if the ECU's temperature compensation is not ideal he will not make the same "corrected" HP

Of cource , see below.

 

 

We see that the richer mixture does nothing to help high RPM power, and in fact the leaner mixture creates more power in the upper mid-range.

I suspect this is because the engine can make more power because it is warmer, not because it is a more ideal mixture.

The leanness that he had in the lower mid rpms may have helped warm the engine, too.

 

Except the fact of the temprature compestation you have to consider also that in the Dyno you don't get the same amount of air to the engine (talking about high rpm) that you get when you are doing 90-130mp/h

1.Therefore a richer mixture than in real life conditions would be OK , in a dyno concludes as too rich and therefore loss of PS, for the same reason a lean mixture would esult on the dyno (always high rpm) in a richer one perhps more close to the 'optimum AFR for power and give more PS than expected.

 

The ECU allows for more fuel when the engine and air are cold.

On the dyno we would be out of the ECU's correction range for engine temperature, unless they tested on a less than roughly body temperature engine.

There is no change of correction for air temperature from 41 to 112ºF.

I think most people fine the bike runs best in cool air, ie. 41ºF.

Once you get to around freezing there is some enrichment.

But I am not sure that is a good thing.

I suspect it will just make the bike run cooler and it will make less power and efficiency.

If we had water cooled engines the engine would probably run warmer around freezing and make more power.

So my idea is to map the ECU to run leaner when air is cool, I may be totally wrong.

But it seems like a good idea to me.

Just want to keep it running smoothly and don't want to burn any valves.

 

There is A LOT going on with the temprature compestation on the ECU map (at least on mine Guzzi) as it came from the factory.

Well of cource I have to explain.There are some temps at the chart that are the points with the different values. Different temps for the Air and for the oil. o lets say

Air: -55,-43,-31,-19,-7,5,17....ect.ect. every 12 to 125. C' deg.

Oil: The same points as above.

To these points the compestation is adjusted in 2 different curves (on my chip mapping)

To tell you an example it would be this. Having adjusted a nice map for the ECU I have noticed that riding on

warm air temps and with an oil temp 55-80 deg ,was around the AFR I had intended , the colder it was getting the richer it was in my AFR indicator. (Innovate XD-1)

so to an air temp of 15 and cold motor or in high speeds I was running way more rich (because of the big compestation value difference on the tempratures of the original (factory map)map.

The funny thing is that in my chip collection ALL the 1100i ''custom'', ''upgraded'', ''you name it''chips that were out on the market were having the factory map in the temprature department. Ohh that's have to be a joke, they did so much work almost in vain..!! That chart makes a big difference oh yes , a big difference.

Dunno what and how correct or wrong is the temp mapping on the V11's from factory but for sure one must check it out

 

I am completing now the optimisation of the temprature chart.

 

So conclusion is , after having your AFR unit installed and be able to make real life measurments of AFR on the bike , for reaching optimum AFR , then the correction of the temprature compestation of the ECU map has to be also adjusted.

 

So hre perhaps opened another ''can of worms'' for you. but that's the facts I 've noticed so far.

Personally I don't do it for the PS , I do it because I am a ''control freak'' on this and also for having a more perfect running engine.

[Desdinova]

I'll admit I haven't read every post in this thread, but I just have some comments.

 

- My Dynorun was pretty high (it's the MKB Dyno 82.37 hp run on GuzziTech). It's probably a little higher now, at least in the 2500-3500 range (I'll explain below).

 

- I did a TON of research by comparing similar Dynoruns from everywhere I could find. The Stucchi X crossover is the key to mid-range power. I think the FBF Carbon Fiber Pipes help, but the crossover is more important. I think the stucchi crossover with stock cans and filter would make a significant difference, but I don't know anyone who has tried it. Luckily my bike was already setup with the bits I wanted, which is really why I bought it.

 

- I spent several afternoons "tweaking" my PCIII. If I noticed a rough spot at a speed, I would work on that area until it was corrected. Make a change, test ride, revisit. This is why I believe my number will probably be higher now than when I did the initial tuning.

 

- The highest numbers are not as important as the overall curve. When tweaking my setup, it was not for max pull. I wanted the bike to start and run smooth at low (parking lot) speeds and not be jerky, yet as soon as I hit 2500 rpm, it's hang on sloopy time. I also wanted to be able to do serious engine braking without any backfiring. ON acceleration, each time I let out the clutch it feels the same as the previous gear.

 

- I also agree that peak numbers are fine, but they are relative and subjective. An "overall" gain (hopefully gain) is more imporant than a "peak" and spending hours fretting over 2 hp at xxxx rpm, or 3 ft lbs at xxxx rpm is a waste of good riding time.

[Alex-Corsa]

Have you measured the AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) between the different tweaks you did? Dynamometer can't measure load at any given speed and any gear

.Therefore , i.e. other gear roll ons- than top gear -(from any rpm) can't show up in the dyno,from the tweaks.

On the street is different because of the different TB degrees you have on different kind of accelerations.Fast opening or slower openings of the throttle are represented by different kind of maps due to different TB opening degrees even at same gear and same rpm. Now most of them are covered with each other (smal differences) cause my chip map is not so sophisticated to have i.e. 30 or more maps that represent different TB openings

 

When I started my tunning I said O.K. I'll make different maps but at one I would have to have best power the motor can give,at any given RPM at an given gear, at any throttle opening. Because this is also the usable power , in all conditions and mostly at every day use.

How can one know this? by measuring the AFR some say best power is achieved at 12.2 ,while others to 12.6-12.8(pounds of air to liter fuel). I can notice, the positive power difference of the bike at these values and I do accordingly.Flashing richer maps won't alone do the trick ,and the spark advance has to be also concidered for some fine tunning as well as the tempratures have to be concidered (that's a hot issue ) for having the optimum map with either colder or hotter engine or wheather.

[moto]

Have you measured the AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) between the different tweaks you did?

Not this again...

Dynamometer can't measure load at any given speed and any gear.

My dyno creates whatever load is necessary to to hold an engine at whatever rpm in whatever gear and at whatever throttle position I choose.

Therefore , i.e. other gear roll ons- than top gear -(from any rpm) can't show up in the dyno,from the tweaks.

Certainly, Mr./Ms. Desdinova's tweaks would show up on my dyno.

On the street is different because of the different TB degrees you have on different kind of accelerations.

What is to prevent somone from testing various throttle openings on the dyno?

Fast opening or slower openings of the throttle are represented by different kind of maps due to different TB opening degrees even at same gear and same rpm. Now most of them are covered with each other (smal differences) cause my chip map is not so sophisticated to have i.e. 30 or more maps that represent different TB openings.

This is incorrect as the map is a grid with throttle positions or manifold air pressure along one axis and rpm along the other. The rate of opening is relatively inconsequential on an injected engine, as the engine is not relying on engine vacuum to supply fuel. There are certainly not 30 or more different maps. On an ECU with both TP and MAP tables, there could be over 30 rows per cylinder to tune. Could this be what you mean?

When I started my tunning I said O.K. I'll make different maps but at one I would have to have best power the motor can give,at any given RPM at an given gear, at any throttle opening. Because this is also the usable power , in all conditions and mostly at every day use.

That sounds reasonable in most cases. However on some engines, depending on the state of tune, best power everywhere will make the bike difficult to ride as the HP may increase by 20 hp over the span of 1000 rpm (as an example).

How can one know this? by measuring the AFR some say best power is achieved at 12.2 ,while others to 12.6-12.8(pounds of air to liter fuel).

Actually, if you want best power, it is best to stay away from supposed AFR measurements, at least by O2 sensor. If you want best power, power, rather that O2 content, must be the arbiter. In fact, looking at AFR as derived from an O2 sensor can mislead severely.

I can notice, the positive power difference of the bike at these values and I do accordingly.

You will be best off with going with what you notice, regardless of the values returned by an O2 sensor.

Flashing richer maps won't alone do the trick ,and the spark advance has to be also concidered for some fine tunning as well as the tempratures have to be concidered (that's a hot issue ) for having the optimum map with either colder or hotter engine or wheather.

Agreed on all points.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[Desdinova]

Totally agree with Derek, especially on a couple of points.

 

Yes, on the dyno initially we ran max throttle for each gear/rpm range etc.. while trying to maintain the A/F ratio. Then we went back and looked at what was happening at indivudual rpm and TPS readings. Actually found a problem that later turned out to be a leak around my intakes... but that's a different story. The test-drive tweaks were to smooth out the acceleration in some area's and stop backfire in others. I am blessed/cursed with being very sensative to mechanical changes and am AR enough to get caught up for hours if it takes to find a little vibration or change in acceleration etc... but no matter... Everyone has their reasons for power tuning a bike, mine are for the best comfort of the ride. Accel when I need it, ride smooth, no backfire etc.. When we were done with the Dyno, there were signifant (to me) area's of lurching or lulls mostly noticed at accelerating up to highway speeds from a stop or on-ramp. Also I had one area where if I was chugging along at maybe 35 mph but in a gear to have the engine above 3000 rpm... you know those straight aways just before the twisties... if I backed off the throttle, just a little, it would actually accelerate. Oops.. Nothing drastic, I'm sensative to it, but it didn't help engine braking I can tell ya that. Anyway, those are some things to watch for and reason to not rely on just the Dyno machine to tune your bike. Ride it too. I'm not saying anyone isn't doing this here, but I have certainly seen it enough times. People roll the bike off the Dyno, and as long as it doesn't stall or backfire too badly they are done. If you are going to go through the trouble of doing it.... do it right is my opinion.

 

One other note... I often see people installing a PCIII to "fix a problem." I'm of the camp that feels the bike should run pretty good before you go to the Dyno. You can easily mask problems with a map, but eventually the problem will rear its ugly head. Before you install the PCIII, the carbs should be balanced, plugs at least clean if not new. Check all vacume issues, air cleaner etc etc..

[Alex-Corsa]

Quote 1= Well....I hope not

 

 

Quote2 = if you say so then you know about it. P.S. edit , I was refering to Inertial type of Dynos that don't measure load. O.K.?

 

Quote 3= >> >> (just a bit more costy though compared to the street, but then again you can say you get an arithmetic ps measurment ) ...Sure, right.

 

Quote 4= Perhaps air resistance-drag above 100mp/h (OK that's too small letters perhaps that play smal role ? )

 

Quote5= I say what I see on my diagnostic mesurments of the ECU data on the street. Can drop you a log file for the VDSTS (if you work with VDSTS-won't open any else) to see what I mean.

2, Yes that's what I mean , the 27C512 of IAW16M has 18 rows (TBs) in 16 different RPM points. If, i.e. it had 32 in 24 repsectively a more smooth approach could be taken.

 

Quote 6 = No problem with hat, Guzzi isn't the kind of a bike that would result too much PS in any case,just want to have them on the stable.

 

Quote 7= I have not been to much deep on that subject,though I rely on riding experience, what I get is relative to what I see on my WBO2 is and it shows in the spark plugs,in riding and in fuel ...(Ok , I won't start this...),nevertheless I practice the way of taking theory to action and vice versa, that's what I do-.

but then again, what could one rely upon and take it from there,?(what is the ''arbiter''?)

I would add though that, lots of relative in tunning people can agree with my approach here(concerning the AFR).For sure there can be different approaches to the same subject as well,.

 

Quote=8 I do so, actually I don't trust things , until their value is proven, for that fact I first notice the effect and then look at the numbers if they match then I trust. Difference can be noticed easy ,by instaling other chips with their strange bahaviour and then ,switch on something (supposingly) better, if it is(without any readings) then it is, and the readings are then taken to concideration.

 

 

Quote=9 As I said the temp reading is a hot issue,i.e. I found out that my engine temp going down 10-15 deg C' in a 24C day difference from riding wiht 30-40mp/h to 90-100mp/h plus where the engin temp. was

from 80degC' to 66' C# (steady after advancing on speed.) Now the compestation values in the map (factory settings) between these oil tempratures is 65= -0,78% at 77=-3.13% and 89=-5.47%,

I ask :

a) where did the cooling came from? (O.K. the air blowing at the engine,) Does this amount air to speed exist on the Dyno?

b] Is this compestation difference in the oil temp a bit too big? ....O.K. you got me here too, it depends the compestation of the air temp at that point.....and in genneral,but? is it then a bit big , won't it make a difference in the fuel burning and ect.ect.ect. of the bike? (measuring AFR there is a difference shown in the situations.)

If I immediatelly stop the bike with this colder oil temp the reading would be different (more rich) in same slower riding as before 10 minutes or so-not much but some,more or less that sohs at the AFR instrument , c)sub-question would be is this AFR unreliable then? ).

Anyways tell me your opinion in based on your methods and experience. And if you have 'messed' around with other Guzzis map temps It would be interesting to know your findings in the subject

 

Cheers

 

P.S. in closing even though it seems to be running details I don't knock the dyno thing ,

I just like and think the ''natural' approach as better (at least to me ), i.e. if it is for me to make a fittness program then I'd rather get out on the sport filed running than be closed on a Gym doing the ramp, .-.

[moto]

When we were done with the Dyno, there were signifant (to me) area's of lurching or lulls mostly noticed at accelerating up to highway speeds from a stop or on-ramp. Also I had one area where if I was chugging along at maybe 35 mph but in a gear to have the engine above 3000 rpm... you know those straight aways just before the twisties... if I backed off the throttle, just a little, it would actually accelerate. Oops.. Nothing drastic, I'm sensative to it, but it didn't help engine braking I can tell ya that. Anyway, those are some things to watch for and reason to not rely on just the Dyno machine to tune your bike. Ride it too. I'm not saying anyone isn't doing this here, but I have certainly seen it enough times. People roll the bike off the Dyno, and as long as it doesn't stall or backfire too badly they are done. If you are going to go through the trouble of doing it.... do it right is my opinion.

There is absolutely no reason why an engine should not run right when it comes off the dyno, unless it was tuned to an "AF ratio" instead of to best power, BSFC, or even a CO between 3 and 5%, or unless certain breakpoints were neglected.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[moto]

Quote 4= Perhaps air resistance-drag above 100mp/h (OK that's too small letters perhaps that play smal role ? )

With my dyno in step test mode, the engine is held at a constant rpm and not allowed to accelerate at all.

Quote5= I say what I see on my diagnostic mesurments of the ECU data on the street. Can drop you a log file for the VDSTS (if you work with VDSTS-won't open any else) to see what I mean.

This could be because cells adjacent to each other may not all be tuned correctly, and because of the inherent limitations of an O2 sensor.

2, Yes that's what I mean , the 27C512 of IAW16M has 18 rows (TBs) in 16 different RPM points. If, i.e. it had 32 in 24 repsectively a more smooth approach could be taken.

Agreed. Higher resolution is better.

but then what could one rely upon and take it from there,?

Put the thing on a brake dyno with a 4 or 5 gas EGA.

(what is the ''arbiter''?)

Technically, this is synonymous with "mediator". In this context one could substitute "determiner".

I would add though that, lots of relative in tunning people can agree with my approach here(concerning the AFR).

If a bunch of peple jumped off a cliff, would you?

For sure there can be different approaches to the same subject as well,.

Certainly, but there are more and less effective approaches.

Quote=8 I do so, actually I don't trust things , until their value is proven, for that fact I first notice the effect and then look at the numbers if they match then I trust. Difference can be noticed easy ,by instaling other chips with their strange bahaviour and then ,switch on something (supposingly) better, if it is(without any readings) then it is, and the readings are then taken to concideration.

Agreed, except in most cases the dyno is a more accurate instrument than perception.

a) where did the cooling came from? (O.K. the air blowing at the engine,) Does this amount air to speed exist on the Dyno?

With step testing, the airspeed only needs to be enough to allow a step to be initiated and ended with a reasonable and repeatable beginning and ending engine temp.

Is this compestation difference in the oil temp a bit too big? ....O.K. you got me here too, it depends the compestation of the air temp at that point...but? is it then a bit big , won't it make a difference in the fuel burning and ect.ect.ect. of the bike? (measuring AFR there is a difference shown in the situations.)

If I immediatelly stop the bike with this colder oil temp the reading would be different in same slower riding as before 10 minutes or so-not much but some.

Anyways tell me your opinion in based on your methods and experience. And if you have 'messed' around with other Guzzis map temps It would be interesting to know your findings in the subject

In my opinion, you would have to independently control oil and air temp on a brake dyno with 4- or 5 gas EGA to properly tune the compensation tables.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[Alex-Corsa]

There is abslotely no reason why an engine should not run right when it comes off the dyno,

Regards,

 

Dere

 

It would be usefull to say that , there are dynos and Dynos , and mechanics and Mechanics, and it's not wether is Dyno or street+AFR better, but the target-result on these from the tunner.

 

Now , anyhing on the subject of temprature compestation?

[Alex-Corsa]

This could be because cells adjacent to each other may not all be tuned correctly, and because of the inherent limitations of an O2 sensor.

Nope that has nothing to do with any O2 sensor , These are measurments taken directly from the ECU OBD with the VDSTS diagnostic .

And ohh I think I have to tell you that My bike never had or any kind of O2 controler , or kat, or whatever to interfere it's ECU.

My ECU is OPEN loop . and NO sencor is controling anything(= free and easy). The WBO2 I have gets me readings I take the relative exta measurments with other setum and I calculate a new map to flash. Due to my additonal high IQ and mathematics score all work OK - Thank God i don't have 32x24 rows to fix..

 

 

If a bunch of peple jumped off a cliff, would you?

I don't think they are talking about that here.

 

With step testing, the airspeed only needs to be enough to allow a step to be initiated and ended with a reasonable and repeatable beginning and ending engine temp.

I don't understand this, .Nevertheless I wanted to pinpoint the differet temps in real life and how these can be taken into concideration in tuning generally from a Load dyno- approach (of best power standard) as you do.(i.e. are they valuable , do they matter, are they looked upon? .,ect.ect.)

 

There is absolutely no reason why an engine should not run right when it comes off the dyno, unless it was tuned to an "AF ratio" instead of to best power,

I think we are talking the same thing, and my meaning from the begining was the same , that you can't be based on AFR to tune on a Dyno = Dyno+AFR don't match as, AFR+ Street.

Now if there is another effective approach to the Dyno , so well be it, i don't look for a can of worms here

In my opinion, you would have to independently control oil and air temp on a brake dyno with 4- or 5 gas EGA to properly tune the compensation tables.

I think I do it the hard way, but I asked you a different thing, if you have 'tickled' any of these stuff or measured differences in colder (yet acceptable to ride9 and hotter engine situations (and or whether)and if any action took part.

 

[moto]

Nope that has nothing to do with any O2 sensor , These are measurments taken directly from the ECU OBD with the VDSTS diagnostic .

And ohh I think I have to tell you that My bike never had or any kind of O2 controler , or kat, or whatever to interfere it's ECU.

My ECU is OPEN loop . and NO sencor is controling anything(= free and easy).

OK, so what measurements are we talking about then?

I don't think they are talking about that here.

It's just another way of saying that just because a certain number of people believe something doesn't make that true, and that just because a certain number of people do something doesn't mean you have to do it too.

I don't understand this.

I thought you were saying that the cylinder head or oil temperatures encountered while riding around would not be as low while on the dyno, because there is not likely to be sufficient air speed over the bike. I was pointing out how this is not necessarily a factor when step testing, and why.

Nevertheless I wanted to pinpoint the differet temps in real life and how these can be calculated in tuning generally from a Load dyno- approach (of best power standard)

I think we may have a language barrier here, as now I'm having trouble following.

I think we are talking the same thing, and my meaning from the begining was the same , that you can't be based on AFR to tune on a Dyno = Dyno+AFR don't match as, AFR+ Street.

What I am saying is that I consider O2 sensor derived AFR to be essentially useless, no matter if monitored on the street or on the dyno.

I think I do it the hard way, but I asked you a different thing, if you have 'tickled' any of these stuff or measured differences in colder (yet acceptable to ride9 and hotter engine situations (and or whether)and if any action took part.

I have not yet seen any measurable differences in exhaust gas content from one temp to another on a injected bike. I think I have either not tested across a broad enough range in terms of conditions, or simply gotten lucky in that the existing corrections were actually pretty good.

 

It would be usefull to say that , there are dynos and Dynos , and mechanics and Mechanics, and it's not wether is Dyno or street+AFR better, but the target-result on these from the tunner.

Unfortunately, the results achievable on a brake dyno with 4- or 5 gas EGA will be essentailly impossible to duplicate on the street with O2 sensor derived AFR.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[Alex-Corsa]

OK, so what measurements are we talking about then?

 

As I said, the RPM, throttle position in degrees, ignition timing, Spark advance , Oil temprature,air temprature, battery V., Atm pressure, and a bunch of other parameters if I need are recordered in REAL time riding the bike directly from the OBD of the ECU to the VDSTS software on my PC.

These are the measurments we are talking about, and to these measurments different throttle openings from the same rpm , represent different throttle position degree opening . i.e. a fast snap on the throtle- roll on on 3rd gear at , i.e 3000rpm to 4.200 rpm would have totally different opening in degrees of the ''butterflies'' of the TBs

( T.P. degrees) compared to a slower opening in all rpm in between , therefore different injection timing , soark, fuel, ect.ect.

 

As well as the AFR from innovate is also as well logged in another log file.

 

 

It's just another way of saying that just because a certain number of people believe something doesn't make that true, and that just because a certain number of people do something doesn't mean you have to do it too

You can as well visit here :

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/index.html

or here: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/index.php and tell them what you think.

 

I thought you were saying that the cylinder head or oil temperatures encountered while riding around would not be as low while on the dyno, because there is not likely to be sufficient air speed over the bike. I was pointing out how this is not necessarily a factor when step testing, and why.

 

No we don't have a language problem

SO here it is, and so it is in their own words ,

http://www.awe-tuning.com/pages/faq/awefaq_main.cfm?FAQ=22

Taken from the above page , also more about Dynos and how-what they measure

 

Temperature: engine temp *greatly* affects power output. Dyno runs done during different levels of coolant, engine and oil temps will have drastically different results, with the cooler runs typically producing more power. Some engines, such as the forced induction vehicles, can lose up to 15% of total hp and torque as temps rise. Thus a colder run done after a particular mod will exaggerate gains, if any. Redirecting external cooling fan air can have tangible effects on data, especially when air is concentrated on intercoolers, open air filters, etc. The best dyno operators will use high velocity fans (not just high volume fans) directed at critical areas of the engine and drivetrain in order to mimic real world conditions as much as possible

 

 

What I am saying is that I consider O2 sensor derived AFR to be essentially useless, no matter if monitored on the street or on the dyno.

 

I have never imagined a more accurate system for AFR than the innovate LC-1 with XD-16 and the Bosch LSU4 Wideband sensor. The immediate responce on what my engine is doing is awesome.My engine runs healthier than ever because of their assit to the maps I do.

Visit the below link and you will be able to see more infos about it

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resourc...ning-videos.php

and there is always the forum

for more objections.

 

I have not yet seen any measurable differences in exhaust gas content from one temp to another on a injected bike. I think I have either not tested across a broad enough range in terms of conditions, or simply gotten lucky in that the existing corrections were actually pretty good.

 

Measuring at the exaust end is a great mistake, the data taken will be missleading especialy in catalitic vehicles.

Visit here for more and watch the LM-1 instalation video with more infos about what I said.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resourc...ning-videos.php

 

Unfortunately, the results achievable on a brake dyno with 4- or 5 gas EGA will be essentailly impossible to duplicate on the street with O2 sensor derived AFR.

 

Now ,since the Dyno is just a simmulation of real time conditions (IF then again it is perfectlly tunned for that.)with the sertain lack of having true drag resistance and real life air cooling on the engine it isn' enough , perhaps good , but not enough for me.

Definatelly one can get accurate measurments taken (in these sertain conditions the dyno works)while drinking a coffee.

 

Personally I trust what I get, and my motor runs best when adjusted to the sertain AFR area I target , and I really don't give a damn about what's the HP it can turn out on a dyno , all I see is that it's pulling like a freight train at any time I want in all real life driving and these are the results that matter to me., and that Mandello mechanic who drove it also confirmed ''the most lively 1100i Sport I have driven.'' well, all these are enough for me.