Dynojet tuning of PC III

[moto]

As I said, the RPM, throttle position in degrees, ignition timing, Spark advance , Oil temprature,air temprature, battery V., Atm pressure, and a bunch of other parameters if I need are recordered in REAL time riding the bike directly from the OBD of the ECU to the VDSTS software on my PC.

These are the measurments we are talking about, and to these measurments different throttle openings from the same rpm , represent different throttle position degree opening . i.e. a fast snap on the throtle- roll on on 3rd gear at , i.e 3000rpm to 4.200 rpm would have totally different opening in degrees of the ''butterflies'' of the TBs

( T.P. degrees) compared to a slower opening in all rpm in between , therefore different injection timing , soark, fuel, ect.ect.

 

As well as the AFR from innovate is also as well logged in another log file.

You can record all of the stuff with the VDSTS untill the cows come home, and the limitations of using an O2 sensor and the fact that you cannot measure horsepower and cannot put a steady load on the engine will prevent you from getting results as good as possible on a proper dyno. Once again, I can test any and all throttle position/rpm combinations one would ever encounter on the street (and some one would never) with step testing. The rate of throttle opening makes very little difference on an injected engine. Think of it this way: At any given time there will be a certain MAP, TP and rpm. If you tune for all of them to be correct, it does not matter at what rate the ECU is moving around between cells. Certainly, you will not be able to get useful information from an O2 sensor under the transient conditions of a moving throttle.

No we don't have a language problem

I think we might, as I sometimes have trouble following you, and you sometimes have a hard time following me. Certainly, we would have to repeat ourselves a lot less if we didn't.

SO here it is, and so it is in their own words ,

http://www.awe-tuning.com/pages/faq/awefaq_main.cfm?FAQ=22

Taken from the above page , also more about Dynos and how-what they measure

These folks and I are in agreement on all points.

Temperature: engine temp *greatly* affects power output. Dyno runs done during different levels of coolant, engine and oil temps will have drastically different results, with the cooler runs typically producing more power. Some engines, such as the forced induction vehicles, can lose up to 15% of total hp and torque as temps rise. Thus a colder run done after a particular mod will exaggerate gains, if any. Redirecting external cooling fan air can have tangible effects on data, especially when air is concentrated on intercoolers, open air filters, etc. The best dyno operators will use high velocity fans (not just high volume fans) directed at critical areas of the engine and drivetrain in order to mimic real world conditions as much as possible

I never said that I didn't think temperture had an effect on anything. What I did say is that for me to maintain temperatures accurately is not a problem. I am able see changes that result in as little as .1 to .2 hp on my dyno. This would simply not be possible if the temps were not controlled closely enough.

I have never imagined a more accurate system for AFR than the innovate LC-1 with XD-16 and the Bosch LSU4 Wideband sensor. The immediate responce on what my engine is doing is awesome.My engine runs healthier than ever because of their assit to the maps I do.

Let's start from the beginning:

 

Under perfect conditions (i.e. 100% efficiency), there is some amount of oxygen required to burn a known quantity of fuel with no leftovers. Unfortunately, 100% efficiency only occurs under the controlled conditions of a laboratory experiment. There must then be some "average" combustion engine efficiency that is used to calculate "A/F ratio" from oxygen content. So, we've arrived at the first problem: There is no direct correspondence between oxygen (or any other gas) content and "A/F ratio". Second, the ideal "A/F ratio" varies from engine to engine and from one rpm/throttle position/load combination to another. Imagine we equip a vehicle with a fuel flow meter and a mass airflow sensor. We then add or subtract fuel so that we have a stoichiometric mixture (as evidenced by the fuel flow and air mass measurements) at a particular chosen throttle position/rpm. We then screw a wideband "lambda sensor" into the exhaust. Do you think it will show a lambda value of 1.0? We then tailor the amount of fuel to yield some desired BSFC or HP. Do you think the A/F ratio as measured by our fuel flow meter/mass air flow sensor combo and our "lambda sensor" will match, or even be offset by the same amount? Say we try this experiment at a different throttle position/rpm. Do you think the results will match, or the offset from the previous comparison will be predictable, and therefore transferable to other throttle positions/rpm? Say we map this all out so that we know what these values are at all throttle positions/rpm. Will it carry over to another engine of the same model? And what if there have been modifications? Third, I'd like to consider what the goal of tuning is in the first place. Is it to get a particular "A/F ratio"? It's more likely that we would like the engine to make horsepower and be efficient (i.e. get good mileage). Looking at oxygen content has limited use when trying to achieve these ends. However, don't get me wrong, oxygen measurements are actually good for something. Once you have tuned for max power by adding and subtracting fuel, the oxygen numbers can help you to detect a retarded ignition timing, misfire, or stagger issue (all of these produce an excess of O2). If you go straight to a particular oxygen content, you completely ignore these factors. Even once you've corrected these, the oxygen content can still vary substantially (somewhere between .1% to 4%). So it can often help to point you in the right direction, but isn't the final arbiter of anything. CO on the other hand can, once a proper value has been established through bracketing, be used throughout as a target to set the mixture strength close to optimum for power and mileage. CO is also not the final arbiter of anything, but it tells you much, much more about whether an engines map is in the ballpark than O2. You can hit an oxygen target right off the bat while the engine has the completely wrong amount of fuel, a misfire and/or wrong timing, whereas with CO, fuel will be close, guaranteed. As an example, there are spots on two Aprilia Futura dyno charts I have, where the O2 content is 0.2%. One has a CO of 12.6% (this is drowning rich!) and the other has a CO of 3.2% (perfect at this particular throttle position/rpm combination). With 3 to 5% CO being a good range for most motorcycle engines, I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions from this example. Then there are all of the sensor/controller related issues, such as that abrupt changes in probe temperature (on off throttle transitions for instance), minute changes in voltage/voltage offset (turning lights/accessories on and off, changes in charging voltage due to rpm), and changes in exhaust pressure (again on off throttle transitions for instance), will cause inaccurate readings. There has been some work done to minimize these and other errors with sophisticated controller technology and careful calibration/setup. See http://www.bgsoflex.com/pwb/0.95/PWBV0.95_QandA.pdf and http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/wblambda.htm. I think very few if any readily available WBO2 sensor/controller combos manage all of these factors effectively, and even if they did, that still leaves the inherent unsuitability of O2 by itself for determining suitable mixture strength. Then there are the delay problems, which will vary fairly unpredictably, or else one could just build an appropriate time offset into the controller, logger or ECU. These delay problems mean that an O2 sensor can only really be used to tweak a map at steady throttle and rpm. Unfortunately, this also means that it can't be used when the engine is really making power (unless you are going up hill with a head-wind). So-called closed loop ECUs either only tweak a setting after the engine has been at steady state for a while, confine inputs from an O2 sensor to a narrow band of rpm/throttle positions, or both. Most ECUs that use O2 sensors do so not to keep the engine running at peak efficiency, but to keep a cat functioning properly. If you insist on trying to use an O2 sensor for tuning, you still need to come up with proper sensor target voltages. These targets would be developed by seeing what values exist at peak HP or best BSFC at each breakpoint. But by then, you already have a perfect open loop map that stands to be harmed more than helped by O2 sensor inputs. I've heard people argue that you can use an O2 sensor to build a map that is in the ballpark when you are starting from scratch. Even that is not possible, as the ECU will get similar input regardless of whether an excess of O2 is due to too little fuel or due to too much.

 

Further recommended reading:

 

Motorcycle Fuel Injection Handbook

http://www.factorypro.com/dyno/4gasEGAvso2sensor.html

Measuring at the exaust end is a great mistake, the data taken will be missleading especialy in catalitic vehicles.

Certainly, the cat will change the readings (after all that's what it's designed to do), and on vehicles equipped with them I install a bung ahead of the cat to take readings from. Why would measuring at the exhaust end be "a great mistake" on non cat equipped engines? Are you thinking that reversion would introduce outside air? If so, not to worry, as I use a probe that sticks up to 30" (760mm) into the exhaust.

Now ,since the Dyno is just a simmulation of real time conditions (IF then again it is perfectlly tunned for that.)with the sertain lack of having true drag resistance and real life air cooling on the engine it isn' enough , perhaps good , but not enough for me.

Again, how can not allowing the engine to accelerate at all fail to be enough resistance? How can maintaining the engine precisely at whatever temperature you like not be good enough?

Personally I trust what I get, and my motor runs best when adjusted to the sertain AFR area I target , and I really don't give a damn about what's the HP it can turn out on a dyno , all I see is that it's pulling like a freight train at any time I want in all real life driving and these are the results that matter to me., and that Mandello mechanic who drove it also confirmed ''the most lively 1100i Sport I have driven.'' well, all these are enough for me.

Now you are really confusing me. You say that a dyno is not good enough for you, and then say that yours and others subjective opinions are. That seems totally backwards to me.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[Desdinova]

But Derek.... what if one uses Amsoil ?

[dlaing]

CO on the other hand can, once a proper value has been established through bracketing, be used throughout as a target to set the mixture strength close to optimum for power and mileage. CO is also not the final arbiter of anything, but it tells you much, much more about whether an engines map is in the ballpark than O2.

Hi Derek,

Don't forget that the WBO2 sensor under rich conditions is actually measuring CO and HC and relying on equations to estimate the air to fuel ratio.

http://www.megasquirt.info/PWC/LSU4.htm

[moto]

Hi Derek,

Don't forget that the WBO2 sensor under rich conditions is actually measuring CO and HC and relying on equations to estimate the air to fuel ratio.

http://www.megasquirt.info/PWC/LSU4.htm

Right, but this is when no oxygen is left over whatsoever, and an engine will rich misfire before no oxygen is left (remember 0.2% O2 with a CO of 12.6%). At that point of course there will be a whole bunch of oxygen left over, which will prompt the ECU/autotuning software/Wideband Commander/tuner who is not paying attention to add even more fuel.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[Alex-Corsa]

You can record all of the stuff with the VDSTS untill the cows come home, and the limitations of using an O2 sensor and the fact that you cannot measure horsepower and cannot put a steady load on the engine will prevent you from getting results as good as possible on a proper dyno. Once again, I can test any and all throttle position/rpm combinations one would ever encounter on the street (and some one would never) with step testing.

Well, reving to over 5000 , 6000 7000 up to 8000 on a Guzzi air cooled engine the engine oil temprature

declines rapidly (over these high speeds-RPM) -therefore different fuell maping-until it reaches ,after 1 min or so a steady operational temp, assuming the bike still runs at about same high speeds, of cource to that we have to concider also the more amount of air that will come through the air intakes to the airbox+ some air drag to the load. (in every vehicle different)..Neddles to say that temp can change again after i.e. 20-30 minutes on lets say 6000rpm

 

The WBo2 sensor+controler,I have it doesn.t show me a % of CO at my instrument, but a calculated Pounds of air/liter of fuel is damn acurate , I can also see it in the spark plugs ..

 

 

Now if you have measured which are these tempratures (engie- air) and the airflow and can simulate them .. ..

Wrong question,,..correct is: how do you simulate this real life WIND-airflow at 100- 130+mp/h on a dyno on a Guzzi ?(also at different enviroment temps , i.e.0Deg C', 5deg C' 10 or 15) and how do you know that these are in real life as well

Perhaps you'll need one of these:

 

So perhaps Dyno is a nice instrument to tunne many areas with some accuracy (though costy) but for fine adjustments one has to be based on real life conditions measurments, in order to find out what is missing.

And generaly in the todays world of tuning AFR instrumet- systems in the class INNOVATE and alike ,are widely accepted as the edge assist in monitoring the engine fuel burn accuratelly

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/pedigo.php

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resourc...ase-studies.php

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/efi-central.php

ect.ect.

For me these cruicial 'real life conditions'measurments are just a ride and the cows are coming home.

 

 

The rate of throttle opening makes very little difference on an injected engine. Think of it this way: At any given time there will be a certain MAP, TP and rpm. If you tune for all of them to be correct, it does not matter at what rate the ECU is moving around between cells.

 

Correct, and that '' IF you tune the right spots'' I am talking about here, how you get to these points to correctly tune them as intended.

So there you have it, in a 'simple' injection map like on mine there are 16 rows that represent TB opening degrees (adjustable) and to each of the row another

16rows of RPM (also adjustable points- I have to correct my self than what said before with 18x16 or so)

I think most of them positions are going to be used in different throtle openings so from the 256 total combinations that can be adjusted lets say minimum 70% is usefull that's about 180 adjustable points.

 

 

Certainly, you will not be able to get useful information from an O2 sensor under the transient conditions of a moving throttle.

So , you have tried-tested the Innovate system and found it totally misleading and wrong in it's measurments. Perhaps then someone has to take these guys who produce it into court for selling bul$$$t.

... I don't think so.!

 

These folks and I are in agreement on all points.

So the point of engine cooling on high speeds has , as well as air flow to the air filter has to be taken into concideration,

And BTW how do you emulate 130+mp/h air flow on a simple dynorun?

I never said that I didn't think temperture had an effect on anything. What I did say is that for me to maintain temperatures accurately is not a problem. I am able see changes that result in as little as .1 to .2 hp on my dyno. This would simply not be possible if the temps were not controlled closely enough.

 

Now how's that , if it is for a couple of PS who cares, Isn't even worth writing these lines..

these guys over here

http://www.awe-tuning.com/pages/faq/awefaq_main.cfm?FAQ=22

 

were talking about 15% difference in HP, so you don't seem to agree on that.

 

Let's start from the beginning:

 

As an example, there are spots on two Aprilia Futura dyno charts I have, where the O2 content is 0.2%. One has a CO of 12.6% (this is drowning rich!) and the other has a CO of 3.2% (perfect at this particular throttle position/rpm combination). With 3 to 5% CO being a good range for most motorcycle engines, I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions from this example.

 

The 12.6-8 I talked before is AFR =kg of air/liter fuel nothing to do with CO reading ,

Why not use the dyno shop's wideband to tune the AFR and then just forget it ?

Why not tune AFR based upon EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature)?

 

 

Then there are all of the sensor/controller related issues, such as that abrupt changes in probe temperature (on off throttle transitions for instance), minute changes in voltage/voltage offset (turning lights/accessories on and off, changes in charging voltage due to rpm), and changes in exhaust pressure (again on off throttle transitions for instance), will cause inaccurate readings. There has been some work done to minimize these and other errors with sophisticated controller technology and careful calibration/setup. See http://www.bgsoflex.com/pwb/0.95/PWBV0.95_QandA.pdf and http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/wblambda.htm.

 

Don't know about other but my INNOVATE system reads same either with lights on of of or whatever.

I suggest you to buy one of these it will help with the dyno readings.

The AFR value for best HP is considered by many different, opinions vary from 12.2 to 12.8,perhaps it varies a bit depending th engine ,but more or less that's what it is. Since I have these values at my insrument in the times and the situations I programm the ECU to be , sure thing is the engine is in the area is producing it's best or around that. Now if there is 1 or 2 HP more or less who cares , they are useless anyways.

 

 

 

 

I think very few if any readily available WBO2 sensor/controller combos manage all of these factors effectively, and even if they did, that still leaves the inherent unsuitability of O2 by itself for determining suitable mixture strength. Then there are the delay problems, which will vary fairly unpredictably, or else one could just build an appropriate time offset into the controller, logger or ECU. These delay problems mean that an O2 sensor can only really be used to tweak a map at steady throttle and rpm. Unfortunately, this also means that it can't be used when the engine is really making power (unless you are going up hill with a head-wind). So-called closed loop ECUs either only tweak a setting after the engine has been at steady state for a while, confine inputs from an O2 sensor to a narrow band of rpm/throttle positions, or both. Most ECUs that use O2 sensors do so not to keep the engine running at peak efficiency, but to keep a cat functioning properly. If you insist on trying to use an O2 sensor for tuning, you still need to come up with proper sensor target voltages. These targets would be developed by seeing what values exist at peak HP or best BSFC at each breakpoint. But by then, you already have a perfect open loop map that stands to be harmed more than helped by O2 sensor inputs. I've heard people argue that you can use an O2 sensor to build a map that is in the ballpark when you are starting from scratch. Even that is not possible, as the ECU will get similar input regardless of whether an excess of O2 is due to too little fuel or due to too much.

 

I suggest you can read this.

 

That thing with the delay must be (is) just a joke by todays technology standards.

My ECU is open loop. .

As about any other point of INNOVATE WBO2 accuracy, every time I have changed a injection or spark value to a given throtle position(s) (even very little) the difference was indicated (as expected) at my INNOVATE AFR instrument even in one second acceleration that was using this point (s)of the map.EVERY TIME, and I know that cause I've been measuring till the cows came home.

[dlaing]

Right, but this is when no oxygen is left over whatsoever, and an engine will rich misfire before no oxygen is left (remember 0.2% O2 with a CO of 12.6%). At that point of course there will be a whole bunch of oxygen left over, which will prompt the ECU/autotuning software/Wideband Commander/tuner who is not paying attention to add even more fuel.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

http://www.moto-lab.com]

Thanks Derek, I did not know that.

I thought the measuring of CO and HC with a WBO2 began somewhere in the 13.x:1, not the richer than 12:1 range.

EDIT I went back and read that heavy shit and can't quite figure it out.

It seems to me that they would not have bothered engineering in the rich CO and H reading if it was not at a useful range of A:F, like 12.x-13.x:1

EDIT From reading, it seems to me that it is measuring CO and H2 whenever it is richer stoichmetric....but I found nothing definitive.

[moto]

I thought the measuring of CO and HC with a WBO2 began somewhere in the 13.x:1, not the richer than 12:1 range.

EDIT I went back and read that heavy shit and can't quite figure it out.

It seems to me that they would not have bothered engineering in the rich CO and H reading if it was not at a useful range of A:F, like 12.x-13.x:1

EDIT From reading, it seems to me that it is measuring CO and H2 whenever it is richer stoichmetric....but I found nothing definitive.

In http://www.megasquirt.info/PWC/LSU4.htm it says:

 

"For the rich mixture side, where there is no oxygen, the sensor measures the amount of CO and H2 in the exhaust gas"

 

The way the rest of the text reads, they are trying to keep the cell at 14.7:1 and the oxygen is either pumped away or provided by reaction and pumped in to make this happen. What convinces me that the oxygen must be gone completely for the thing to react CO and H2 is that I don't think the thing can pump oxygen out and in simultaneously. Maybe not all of the O2 on the rich side is provided by reaction? They also say this:

 

"We have explained the excess-oxygen case where the air-fuel mixture is lean. How does it operate on the oxygen-depleted side, or rich air/fuel ratio side? For this case, oxygen is ‘pumped’ into the measurement cavity simply by reverse application of current on the pump element. Feedback on the Nernst measurement cell indicates when stoichiometric equilibrium has been achieved. Now, something should be bothering your gut right about now…The pump cell operates on oxygen ion transport, but we are in a situation where there is no oxygen in the air-fuel mixture (i.e. we are rich). If we become much more rich, we still do not have oxygen. Super rich, and still no oxygen. How can there be a feedback situation in this case?"

 

To me, this quote implies that they expect all O2 to be gone when the thing goes from pumping out to pumping in (i.e. on the rich side of 14.7:1). The word "stoichiometric" (which for gasoline is 14.7:1) also implies that all oxygen (and fuel) is used up. Since this is not possible, it would be of some (limited) interest to know just how many percent O2 they expect to be left over at 14.7:1, if not zero. This then brings up that the sensor could only be accurate for one particular level of efficiency, if at all.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

 

[dlaing]

This then brings up that the sensor could only be accurate for one particular level of efficiency, if at all.

That is certainly the problem with the narrow band sesors.

I am surprised there are not more studies available on the internet discussing the accuracy of the WBO2 sensors.

The closest thing I saw to an analysis of their accuracy was a comparison of sensors, and they did vary quite a lot.

You definitely have to take the reading on them only as a relative number, even though all the manufacturers say they are 0.1% accurate, and you have to keep in mind that measured ratio is greatly effected by timing and other less predictable variations.

[Ryland3210]

Having now broken in my bike, I'm interested in having a dyno run and tuning job done on my '04 Cafe Sport, and possibly purchase a power commander.

 

I'm in Warwick, New York.

 

Any suggestions?

[dlaing]

Having now broken in my bike, I'm interested in having a dyno run and tuning job done on my '04 Cafe Sport, and possibly purchase a power commander.

 

I'm in Warwick, New York.

 

Any suggestions?

If you can settle for wideband O2 sensor dynotuning, John Tavolacci is your man!

http://www.dyno-solutions.com/

He owns one of the fastest Guzzis on this forum.

If you spend more money, Derek may be able to recommend a multi-gas tuner.

Multi-gas dyno-tuning is much more accurate, but much slower, and thus more expensive.

There is some dispute about the effectiveness of tuning just with a wideband oxygen sensor, as it may actually make the bike worse.

But if you follow people's posts the majority have good results.

I was one of the exceptions. In general the tuning link helped my bike, but it increased pinging in one map area.

I don't know of anyone on this forum, other than maybe Derek, who has multigas dynotuned their Guzzi, but it will produce better results.

The method Alex-Corsa is using should also produce good results with alot of patience, intelligence, and effort.

[Alex-Corsa]

One bit of info , between WBO2 sensors is found here , from th people of Innovate that they also provide WBO2 sensors to some Dynos (i.e. Mustang)

A very interesting read from a great forum

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/...hlight=accurate

Reading 8th post from top from ''Klatinn'' VP. of the company ,goes:

Hi,

 

One VERY important thing to consider when comparing your wideband to a dyno is the fact that a typical dyno samples AFR not by time, like the LM-1, but by RPM. On an inertial dyno the RPMs on a run are not constant, but a sweep from low RPMs to high. Any response time issue of the Wideband with that sampling method will show as a shift of the recorded AFRs to higher RPMs. This is specially true for the vacuum pump WB setups. A few users have tested those and found delays of up to 2 seconds. If the whole dyno run lasts only 5 seconds, the idle AFRs will be recorded by the dyno over the first couple of thousand RPMs and will show up as lean reading at the lower RPMs. In the case of a slow wideband setup on an RPM sweep, it is not a matter of accuracy, but a matter of correlation between RPM changes and the time the wideband takes to react.

 

Regards,

Klaus

 

I hope this solves any missunderstandings about WBO2s posted before. ..So the is a difference it's not the accuracy in general, but how is that translated in time cause of the way each works..

[Ryland3210]

If you can settle for wideband O2 sensor dynotuning, John Tavolacci is your man!

http://www.dyno-solutions.com/

 

The method Alex-Corsa is using should also produce good results with alot of patience, intelligence, and effort.

 

I truly understand and appreciate the advantages of a dynomometer which can hold rpm's constant under variable loads as Derek describes. However, he's 3000 miles from me, so the question is, is the Dynojet 250i used by John Tavolacci an inertial type?

 

If it is, I hope Derek can suggest someone closer to Warwick.

 

I'm not necessarily looking for more power, but I'm a bit of a perfectionist engineer that would like to get better mileage (range) and have the bike run as perfectly as technology will provide.

[dlaing]

I truly understand and appreciate the advantages of a dynomometer which can hold rpm's constant under variable loads as Derek describes. However, he's 3000 miles from me, so the question is, is the Dynojet 250i used by John Tavolacci an inertial type?

 

If it is, I hope Derek can suggest someone closer to Warwick.

 

I'm not necessarily looking for more power, but I'm a bit of a perfectionist engineer that would like to get better mileage (range) and have the bike run as perfectly as technology will provide.

Apparently the 250i is eddy current LOW inertia, still from a perfectionists stand point, the WBO2 sensor that he uses is better designed for a quick tune, than an optimal tune.

http://www.factorypro.com/dyno/dyno_locs.html may clue you in to a much more expensive, but superior tune.

Or better yet, as a perfectionist engineer, you might look at mapping software, a CO meter, and a logging WBO2, and what the heck, an exhaust gas temperature sensor and an onboard dynometer.

The CO meter that we mortals can afford is probably only good for steady state tuning, and therefore, mostly good just for measuring idle CO.

Mapping software gives you the ultimate control.

WBO2 is of disputable value.

Exhaust gas temperature logging should give a clue to help one make better use of WBO2 data.

I have no idea how well onboard dynos work.

From what I understand, they work either through accelleration calculations or through G-Force. In either case, I doubt they are very accurate, but I sure could be wrong.