"old" V11 sport frame

[Guest Nogbad]

PS what is OYB

 

British dealer near me called "On Yer Bike". Hubert bought some forks off them via e-bay, and I picked them up and shipped them for him as the dealer wasn't keen.

[Guest ratchethack]

British dealer near me called "On Yer Bike". Hubert bought some forks off them via e-bay, and I picked them up and shipped them for him as the dealer wasn't keen.

Sherlock Road Geez here.

 

This would explain why his spring rates seem to be so much higher than the stock .6 kg/mm springs.

 

They're probably replacement springs, by his weight and sags, close to 1.0kg/mm.

[luhbo]

Sherlock Road Geez here.

......

 

Cold, man, cold! They came factory sealed and wrapped in Guzzi bubble tape. Probably any shop surplus or whatever, but absolutely untouched.

 

Hmm, this Sherlock Road Geez could ofcourse think that this has to do with Nogbad. Yes, that's it: he has touched them, at least more then twice. Should he have healing hands? Beaming even through Italian bubble tape? This could explain also why he has no probs with his hooligan tool.

 

Hubert

[Guest ratchethack]

The Front should be fine...I would cut the spacer 5-10mm

The Rear you could add 15mm of preload and be much better off.

A stiffer shock spring would help but I would say is not a dire requirement at your weight for the WP shock which I believe came with a 475lb spring.

 

PS what is OYB

Of course, as stated previously, opinions will vary. . . . .

 

Hubert didn't ask me for my input, but he did post his sags on an open Forum where this is being discussed, so I still consider it fair game for comment, whether he likes my opinion or not.

 

As you know Dave, the difference between laden and unladen sag is the indicator of the match of rate to load. Hubert's getting a 35 mm difference at the rear. With a correct spring rate this would be close to 20 mm. He's a whopping 75% too high.

 

Now to some degree this kind of thing will always come down to personal preference on top of opinion, but this (35 mm) is nothing short of extreme by anyone's measure who knows anything about suspension set-up!!

 

IMHO, his rear spring rate is excessively and even dangerously under-rated for his riding weight. I'd expect frequent bottoming of the shock, as I mentioned previously, and with his laden sag at 55 mm, it's an indicator of particularly bad handling (which he's mentioned). On top of this, IMHO, it's an open invitation for many kinds of unpredictable and potentially bad things happening under certain road conditions.

 

I'm not particularly concerned with how many might disagree. But if you do, I believe you're dead wrong.

 

BAA, TJM & YMMV

[Guest ratchethack]

Cold, man, cold! They came factory sealed and wrapped in Guzzi bubble tape. Probably any shop surplus or whatever, but absolutely untouched.

 

Hmm, this Sherlock Road Geez could ofcourse think that this has to do with Nogbad. Yes, that's it: he has touched them, at least more then twice. Should he have healing hands? Beaming even through Italian bubble tape? This could explain also why he has no probs with his hooligan tool.

 

Hubert

Look, Hubert. I've been trying to provide you with helpful information. I don't think you'd have posted your sags on an open Forum where this is being discussed if you wanted to keep it secret. I don't have any way of knowing what you've got except by what you've posted.

 

It may very well be that Marz 40 mm USD forks were shipped from Marzocchi with springs other than those intended for Guzzi production. I'd consider this a high probability in fact. When you buy off E-bay you often take risks with what you've got, because the source is often not what you expected. Do you think there's any possibility at all that your forks had been re-wrapped? It's just one of many possibilities, my friend.....

 

You hadn't indicated with your post with your sags that this was anything other than a stock production Guzzi-issue Marz fork like mine and everyone else's. If I were you, I'd be at least a little relieved and pleased to have discovered that you DON'T have the production Guzzi-issue springs that were shipped from Mandello with your bike. At least you know that you're closer to ideal on the front end than you would be with the stock springs.

[luhbo]

Ratchet, this is probably more a problem of communication than one of spring rates.

 

First, all this bla was caused by people like you and others who say more or less pointed that riding an early V11 without substantial changes to the suspension means risking one's life. That's nonsense and again, that's all what I was complaining about. Hope I could make this clear now.

 

The more as the KR that I own does not show any dangerous sag values or spring rates. The front is perfect (sagwise) , cut down 5 mm of the spacer and your pal Strappe would be totally happy. The rear is usable as well. It's 55 laden, but 20 unladen. This difference of 35mm is also not to bad, is it?

I will rise the back to 5mm unladen next time I have the airbox out and then keep you posted. But all I will have then is a more nervous bike, but not a more sensible fork and rear shock. This missing sensibility is the main issue of these cheap elements, not the sags, and you can't cure this with springs. The more as Guzzi Pope has only one type to offer.

 

Ahh, sorry, my fault. As mentioned before, a fanatical devotion to the pope should of course not be part of our technical "discussions". Sorry

[Guest ratchethack]

First, all this bla was caused by people like you and others who say more or less pointed that riding an early V11 without substantial changes to the suspension means risking one's life. That's nonsense and again, that's all what I was complaining about. Hope I could make this clear now.

Hubert, let me once again try to put this discussion in another, hopefully more illuminating light. I hope you can pay attention.

 

One poster to this thread had a fairly serious accident with his "short frame" Sport. I don't know if you recall his first posts after the accident, but I do. His lack of comprehension of suspension operation and setup, IMHO, was at least one aspect of, and probably a likely a large contributor to the cause of his crash. If you don't recall, it was a single-vehicle accident on a straight section of road, not at excessive speed, with what I remember described as slight rippling of the surface of the tarmac. The rider had no idea whatsoever how he suddenly, without warning, found himself doing the "extended asphalt backstroke".

 

Now in my opinion, Hubert, this is not all that uncommon. I see lots of motorcycle accidents where I live. The rider above didn't have enough knowledge about motorcycles to come up with any explanation whatsoever about the cause of his accident other than to suspect something was inherently wrong with the design of the motorcycle. He had strongly implied that some mysterious but unknown design flaw of the motorcycle was the culprit, as was discussed previously in this thread. IMHO he was wrong, and as it happens, he was very nearly dead wrong. I suggest to anyone who emerges from this kind of experience without any understanding of the cause, that he carries with him a high probability of repeating it!!

 

I again suggest to you, Hubert, that such lack of understanding is dangerous and in fact it is a risk to the rider's life. He could very easily have slid under an approaching truck. Where I ride, he may also have done what many around here have done and continue to do on a semi-regular basis - he may have dropped to his death off a cliff. If either of these scenarios aren't an obvious risk of life to you, I don't know what might be.

 

All I've suggested WRT suspension and safety is to suggest that the two are very directly linked, and that a sorted chassis is a far safer chassis, regardless of the skill of the rider. No, a properly set-up suspension is not a guarantee against crashing. But a poorly set-up motorcycle carries with it a far higher risk and probability of crashing, particularly in the hands of an inexperienced rider.

 

Now I know, as I've mentioned, that many riders, even MOST riders, don't think about suspension set-up. This does not mean that it isn't important. We live in a culture today where personal responsibility has been stripped away and where people habitually look elsewhere to assign blame when things go wrong. Again, motorcycles are not like cars, where "one size fits all". There's a reason that they are so highly configurable and highly adjustable. It's because they must be carefully matched to every rider to perform as designed. This is a fact that is lost on the novice and the poorly informed alike, but at least such ignorance may be overcome with an open mind and the correct information.

 

I haven't come up with this concept on my own, Hubert. Nor have I suggested "substantial changes to the suspension", as you put it, modifying anything, or expensive upgrades! There is a REASON that your motorcycle has so many suspension adjustments on it, and it's NOT because "the factory couldn't get it right"!!!!

 

The fact is that none of these adjustments are of much value at all without a match of spring rate to load to start with!! This is a basic requirement for many, if not most riders when they get a new motorcycle, myself included. In the case of the "short frame" Sports and others that came with the Marz 40 mm USD fork, it's far more important because of the pathetically low-rate springs that came with them. Many good books have been written on the topic of motorcycle suspension, and again, I think you'd find that professional chassis tuners agree with me on this.

 

I hope that you are able to look beyond your own situation, Hubert, and imagine what it's like for riders of your motorcycle with fork springs with about 60% of the spring rate you've been riding on!!!! When I got my Guzzi, I was one of 'em myself, and I can assure you from personal experience that relatively speaking, it DOES NOT handle either accurately, controllably, OR SAFELY that way!!!!!!

 

I don't know if you believe any of this after all this discussion, but I suggest to you that if you do not, you are not only poorly informed, but as long as you remain poorly informed, you are a greater danger to yourself and to others than the rider with both an education and hands-on understanding of suspension operation.

 

That's all. I'm about wrung-out on this now, but if you want to continue to challenge me, maybe I'll respond. Or not.

[dlaing]

As you know Dave, the difference between laden and unladen sag is the indicator of the match of rate to load. Hubert's getting a 35 mm difference at the rear. With a correct spring rate this would be close to 20 mm. He's a whopping 75% too high.

BAA, TJM & YMMV

Ohlins recommends for the rear

Without rider 5-10mm

With rider 30-40mm

This leaves the maximum exceptable difference to be 35mm...certainly not ideal, and you or I would uprate our springs in a heart-beat, but those are very good numbers for touring on smooth roads.

He will find great benefit by adding pre-load to the rear.

I hope Luhbo realizes that a firmer spring would help the bike to initially sit lower, be more stable and resist bottoming better.

I think my rear with 475# spring is set to 10mm-35mm for a 25mm difference.

Ideally I would go for 15mm-35mm for 20mm difference, this would probably require a 500# or 525#spring.

The other thing Luhbo could do in the turn is just shift his weight forward of where he measured his sag.

My guess is he probably already does this when in the twisties.

[Guest ratchethack]

Ohlins recommends for the rear

Without rider 5-10mm

With rider 30-40mm

Er, I don't have a clue why you think this is relevant, since for starters, he isn't using an Ohlins shock? Next, when you take the low of a low range and run it against the high of the high range, this is a deliberate and invalid distortion of the numbers in consideration by anybody's reckoning in any case.

 

I'm using insdustry-standard numbers. Hubert is 75% out of whack on his rear shock sag comparison. Sorry, this isn't even arguable, and it's not "partiably fixable" without a new spring, and this is simply a fact.

. . . . . those are very good numbers for touring on smooth roads.

Um, Dave, he's certainly very badly mis-matched front-to-back with a too-high front spring rate and a vastly too low rear rate, which is a particularly unstable and very undesirable condition, according to every suspension expert I've ever spoken with or read and, and this has been corroborated many times by my own personal experience. If you're going to be mis-matched with rates, they should be in the same direction at the very least.

 

Hubert's are most certainly far far far far far away from "very good numbers" by anyone's measure. You are doing someone reading this a very bad disservice with your analysis. It's incorrect in seriously critical areas.

 

Dave, does it make sense to you that Hubert would have cited the handling characteristics quoted immediately following below if he had "very good numbers"?

What I find to be important: I can see that at high speeds due to the missing wind shield and me sitting more in the back the front becomes very light! I guess I have not more but 15 or max.20mm negative stroke left then. Insufficient negative stroke makes the bike prone to every bad thing, mostly high speed wobble. I don't think I would really want to go this way and further reduce the laden sag/negative stroke.

. . . . . the fork "feels" already way to stiff, it doesn't follow bad roads as good as the old 35mm forks of the LM3 and 750S did it. This is what maybe gives you sometimes this uncertain feeling as soon as you ride over small and quick following bumps or defects on the road, especially while cornering. That's at least my experience.

. . . . .

Hubert

Dave, I think you know better than what you've said above. I don't think you'd have arrived at the false statements you've made if this were your own suspension. I'd bet my own safety on my own bike on mine, but I haven't got the anywhere near the interest level to wrestle with you on this. If you want to argue this one I reckon y'er WAY OUT THERE by y'erself and the burden of proof is on you. If you just feel the need to argue with someone, count me out.

[Guest Nogbad]

Sometimes Mister Eh! Crack That, you can come across as patronising, unbearably arrogant and self-righteous.

 

Most SVA with bikes are, when it comes down to it either failure of the rider to ride within his own skill level, or failure to ride within the performance envelope of the machine.

 

Ok I accept that perfectly set up suspension will expand the latter, and a given rider will therefore be able to corner faster for a given combination of conditions. However, regardless of the machine, you will find rider skill is the more important. Rossi can win races on a bike that handles badly enough to spit off another rider at a lower speed. It is all about knowing the machine, developing a technique and being in control.

 

So, I reject your argument that the V11 is dangerous whatever the suspension settings / spring rates etc etc.

 

The old adage that "It's a bad workman who blames his tools" is true with bikes as it is in many other areas of life.

 

I don't argue at all with your desire to set your bike up to fit your personal weight and riding style, I am sure it is worth doing and I intend to have a go myself. However, NOT doing it is not stupid, negligent or dangerous. By making these assertions, you just start to sound like Al Gore. How about "Ratchethack: The dangerous and inconvenient truth about Guzzi suspension" A fair and balanced look at motorcycling theory and practice.

[Guest ratchethack]

Sometimes Mister Eh! Crack That, you can come across as patronising, unbearably arrogant and self-righteous.

This is indeed my nature in the face of most serious disinformation, and particularly most forms of raw neglect and mendacity! I'm not running for political office, so I can well afford to speak the truth as I know it to be, and stand up for it here with little regard for consensus. I can also do it with disregard for, and if I become irritated by willful ignorance, disdain for those who have no idea what they're talking about. For those who's disinformation when it comes to safety on the road I believe may represent a danger to others who are simply attempting to learn and understand important principles of interest to them, I make little attempt to be polite, and I see little need for an apologetic approach.

So, I reject your argument that the V11 is dangerous whatever the suspension settings / spring rates etc etc.

Nog, I've made no such argumet whatsoever. I have in fact argued precisely the opposite, and I believe that any objective read of my posts shows that you have this exactly backwards. You can reject anything you like.

 

And so can I. I reject wholesale your idea that correctly re-springing a motorcycle, as I have done many times, is tatamount to "modification" of the motorcycle. In many cases, particularly when the stock springs tend to be such a bad mismatch to rider weight as in the case of the Guzzi production-issue Marz 40 mm USD fork, in fact, it's rather a necessity as I've repeated many times, for achievement of the performance engineered into the Guzzis that are the topic of this thread.

 

Now I've tried several analogies, hoping to make the point, and I thought you might've been coming along at one point, Nog, yet you have evidently only acquired more justifications for not doing (again) what every decent owners and service manual, every book on suspension by a reputable author, and every person who I consider an expert on suspension has ever described as the basis for fundamentaly sound motorcycle operation.

 

You are as incorrect as Dave is, and possibly in more serious error than he.

 

Your rejection of the basics of motorcycle handling and inherent safety is certainly common, but it is incorrect, Sir. I would emphasize again that regardless of skill level and experience of the rider, such willful ignorance and neglect can, and by the laws of probabilities also has, led to and has been a root cause of unplanned events on the road that keep insurance companies and hospital emergency rooms busy.

 

I've been amazed by the evident low number of Forum regulars with any grasp of the concepts discussed here. But I believe that I understand it well enough to help others like Hubert, who, whether he realizes it or not, has a serious and yes, potentially dangerous handling problem that easily could have a very happy ending, that's relatively easily and inexpensively solved, without modifications, that IMHO would surprise him beyond his current ability to comprehend.

 

If there's anyone out there interested in learning more about a poorly understood but extremely important area of motorcycle operation who'd like to entertain a rational, knowledgeable discussion on this I welcome your views, ideas, challenges, or questions.

[Guest Nogbad]

[Paul Minnaert]

Er, I don't have a clue why you think this is relevant, since for starters, he isn't using an Ohlins shock?

 

spring rates are not related to shock or fork make. As long as they are linear. A 7.5 sping rear from WP or ohlins gives the same sag.

 

What might be a problem is that guzzi adjusts their suspension to a weight of an average italian. I don't know how much the average weight of an american citizen is above that but I suspect quite a lot.

 

 

[luhbo]

They're probably replacement springs, by his weight and sags, close to 1.0kg/mm.

 

I was on our bathroom scale 10 minutes ago with one leg of the original silver fork. The readings are as follows:

 

kg.......30.....45.....60.....75

mm.14.....15.....15.....12

 

My younger son Kilian, always keen on helping in bike affairs, drew a line every 15kg release. The values above are the measured distances.

 

From 75kg down to 60 one can see already the progressive effect of the air gap, between 60kg and 30kg it moves quite exactly for 30mm.

 

Hubert

[Baldini]

Sometimes Mister Eh! Crack That, you can come across as patronising, unbearably arrogant and self-righteous...etc

 

Maybe - but that doesn't mean he's wrong.

 

There's been crashes/near crashes here that I heard about sounded v much like they were due to v bad suspension set up. My Scura came stock running wide & trying to chuck me off if it hit big dips mid corner, I considered it to be UNSAFE.

 

From what I see Hubert's bike is way too soft at back & the vague handling he describes is the predictable result. Don't see the argument myself?

 

I guess if you ride slow enough it almost doesn't matter.

 

KB