ECU Vs PCIII

[dlaing]

David, let's just set the record straight that this is just your opinion. That said, yes every bike should really spend some time on the dyno to assure things are ideal... HOWEVER, from *my* experience, with most maps of exact mods and TPS setting, pre-built maps can be amazingly accurate. I spoken with well over a hundred people that have taken their bikes to the dyno, and were told that there was no need for a custom map.

  Your "always wrong" statement above is blatantly incorrect, and I'm not sure what qualifies your "experience" with tuning outside of tinkering and taking your bike to a Tuning Link dyno awhile ago. Don't mean to be harsh, but I cannot/will not allow misguided/incorrect information on this subject.

 

  This will be my last post on this topic.

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Sorry if I was misleading or heaven forbid, arguably, wrong.

Please stick around, otherwise I'll try to convince everyone to trade in their PCIIIs for TuneBoys!

My LIMITED experience from tinkering without any gas analysis or WBO2 feedback is that the appropriate downloaded map greatly helped my bike, but I also benefited from backing off the enrichment numbers in a few map cells. To me, the fact that I could improve it, to me, technically makes the map "wrong". But wrong is the wrong word to use as it may mislead people that they are better off without it. The map in the ECU is more wrong, and putting a downloaded map on will almost always help.

A better word to have used would have been imperfect.

I apologize for using a less than ideal, aka. imperfect, or wrong, word.

But please note, I did say YMMV.

 

 

That being said, I am truly surprised that you spoke to so many people that were told that their was no need for a custom map.

I took great faith in your previous statements and the testimonials of others that their bikes were greatly improved from dyno mapping, and recollect no testimonials indicating that anyone wasted money dynotuning, except in a couple of rare cases where the dyno-tuning made it worse.

Your experience is far greater than mine, and your post has been very enlightening.

I wish you would comment further on dual cylinder tuning, especially as it applies to various crossovers, and two into ones.

JediOne's bike could be an interesting example.

What percentage of bikes are benefitted from a customized map?

What percentage are benefited by dual cylinder tuning?

You don't have to answer, and I apogize for putting that pressure on you.

[dlaing]

and after reading all this I'm no more decided than b4 I started lookin. 

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But now you know more, even if it is useless.

 

So, to rehash your choices:

 

$0 download a map for your PCIII

Pro, save money for beer

Con, already drink too much beer.

Mods, if you mod it, you can always get drunk and play with the map.

 

$300 dyno tune a custom map for your PCIII [

Pro, moderate price,

Con, not much improvement???

Mods if you mod it, you may need to spend another $300...or you could tweak it yourself...

 

$500 dyno tune a custom map for your ECU

Pro serious improvement

Con, very serious price.

Mods If you mod it, you may need to spend maybe $350-$400 as the key has already been paid for. Ask Doug L. about that, if you care.

[Guest ratchethack]

David, let's just set the record straight that this is just your opinion. That said, yes every bike should really spend some time on the dyno to assure things are ideal... HOWEVER, from *my* experience, with most maps of exact mods and TPS setting, pre-built maps can be amazingly accurate. I spoken with well over a hundred people that have taken their bikes to the dyno, and were told that there was no need for a custom map.

  Your "always wrong" statement above is blatantly incorrect, and I'm not sure what qualifies your "experience" with tuning outside of tinkering and taking your bike to a Tuning Link dyno awhile ago. Don't mean to be harsh, but I cannot/will not allow misguided/incorrect information on this subject.

 

  This will be my last post on this topic.

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Todd, FWIW, the "pre-built" map you loaded on my Sport way back at the Ramona rally over 2 years ago hasn't fallen short of expectations in ANY way. The pre-PCIII balking and "flat spot" symptoms went away instantly. It's run strong & clean with no hiccups ever since, has delivered decent mileage, and I've had NO motivation whatsoever to consider a custom map. Though I've never put it on a dyno, I reckon I'm in the category of the guys you're referring to who don't need it - or put another way, any potential benefit here would seem to be likely too small to justify the cost and effort!

 

I, for one, sincerely hope you'll reconsider not posting here again on this subject! IMHO, many are easily and often misled in this area. No offense to Dave or anyone else - it's just a topic that invites a great deal of blurring between individual experimentation, opinion, and raw speculation before knowledge borne of experience becomes established and proven. You've always brought a great deal of benefit to this Forum with your knowledge, expertise and depth of experience, and it's greatly appreciated!!

[al_roethlisberger]

Al, I suppose I should do a search, but what's a "mapped ECU from TLM?"  I understand the V-11s don't have a chip to play with, so I'm guessing TLM is someone who reprograms the ECU?  Just trying to figure out what you V-11 guys have done, and what part (if any) applies to the sport i / centauro ECU.

 

TIA.

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TLM has done a lot of dual-plug conversions, and they used to(may still?) offer a service where you exchange your stock ECU for a reprogrammed ECU with the correcly adjusted ignition curve for dual-plugged heads.

 

When I had completed my dual-plug conversion, there wasn't any other easy option to adjust the timing curve, other than Manley which was too far away. Believe it or not, there was NO ONE in California that while they may have had the FIM software, would attempt to remap the ignition curve on the Guzzi. These were mostly Ducati dealers/shops.

 

TuneBoy either was nonexistant, or at least no one here seemed to know about it, and anyway, it would have guesswork on my part to adjust the timing anyway.

 

So, I exchanged my ECU via TLM

 

And for the fuel/air mapping, I have a PCIII, simply because.... at least back in Calfornia, there were many very good Certified PCIII shops that would map it with a custom map for about $200.

 

al

[Pierre]

TLM has done a lot of dual-plug conversions, and they used to(may still?) offer a service where you exchange your stock ECU for a reprogrammed ECU with the correcly adjusted ignition curve for dual-plugged heads.

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Thanks Al. Did you ever get a print out of the "re-map?" Curious how it is different, and where. Do you know if it was only at full throttle, or did they remap at all throttle / RPM settings?

 

I'll be getting a look at the stock sport i map. I think Todd is trying to score the new factory dual plug map. Anxious to compare those two.

 

In the meantime, I've got the Stein-Dinse analogue curve for dual plugged heads, and now a table from Mike Rich. They are substantially different, but again only deal with full throttle setting.

 

If you have a print out of your re-mapped ignition I'd love to see it. I'll start posting any/all findings on the guzzitech tips section (where my "hot rod 101" project resides). We'll keep the sport i ignition discussion over on guzzitech, but feel free to join in or add.

 

TIA.

 

Pierre

[Pierre]

I, for one, sincerely hope you'll reconsider not posting here again on this subject!  IMHO, many are easily and often misled in this area.  No offense to Dave or anyone else - it's just a topic that invites a great deal of blurring between individual experimentation, opinion, and raw speculation before knowledge borne of experience becomes established and proven.  You've always brought a great deal of benefit to this Forum with your knowledge, expertise and depth of experience, and it's greatly appreciated!! 

74790[/snapback]

Nicely put Ratchet. Couldn't agree more. Todd and I are embarking on a sport i project (pretty heavily modified motor) that we'll be discussing over on guzzitech forum. Feel free to check in. Any findiings I'll notify here and provide a click through.

 

FI. So many tools! So little (but expanding thanks to boards like this and guzzitech) knowledge! Let the games begin. No reason we can't all play.

[dlaing]

IMHO, many are easily and often misled in this area.  No offense to Dave or anyone else - it's just a topic that invites a great deal of blurring between individual experimentation, opinion, and raw speculation before knowledge borne of experience becomes established and proven. 

74790[/snapback]

No offense to Todd or anyone else - it's also a topic that invites biased positions from experienced professionals that are unwilling to enlighten us to the fullest extent of their ability from their great experience.

I feel like I have had to make an ass out of myself to draw out some answers.

I think the most valuable posts in the ECU thread came from Wayne, Todd, Cliff, and Derek who answered many questions by me and others that were based on minimal experience, opinion, and raw speculation.

Their answers varied depending on their experiences.

If you think they had no bias, why was their no consensus?

I hope I am not scaring anyone off with these statements and questions.

I just think if statements and questions from someone like me blur the subject, the attempt by the experienced to focus the light has resulted in double or even triple vision.

Can we reach some consensus about the value of each product and technique?

Unfortunately it is expensive to do comparative dyno testing, but it would be interesting to take a bike, download a map, then tuning link the bike, and then take it to someone like Doug Lofgren, Derek Capito, or Ken Hand, and see how much they change it.

Even then, that is only one bike, and hardly evidence.

This test by Doug Lofgren http://www.visi.com/~moperfserv/chip_talk.htm

is also, just one example, but I believe it shows why custom tuning is worth while compared to downloaded maps.

If I don't have the experience, atleast I can read.

I urge people like Ratchethack to read Doug's article, and to contemplate what is happening in their engine with a downloaded map.

I wish I had $800 to send to Ben so he could do a PCIII map, and then an UltiMap on top of the PCIII. (but then he'd have to keep the PCIII on the bike )

I wonder if Doug would do an article on something like that?

Or maybe Derek and Todd will give me free dyno time to use my bike as the guinea pig for the test

[Guest ratchethack]

I urge people like Ratchethack to read Doug's article, and to contemplate what is happening in their engine with a downloaded map.

Dave, I appreciate your suggestion.

 

I read this over two years ago (as I recall) and studied a lot more of Doug's work pretty carefully then. The dyno runs Doug published on the V11 were the basis for the first mod I made - a Stucchi crossover.

 

As far as contemplating what's happening in my engine from the perspective of the ECU, much of the information that's out there seems to provide me very little potential value. A coupla points:

 

1. It'd be one thing if my engine were not running perfectly, but beyond a certain point of perfection where I stop caring, pursuit of further improvement would seem to be moot. No amount of knowledge and/or confusion over what's happening in my engine and ECU will change this (except to possibly tempt me to do something that could make it run worse!), so for me, the idea of re-mapping would seem to be strictly academic!

 

2. I'm not doing on-going modifications that would cause me to need changes to my "pre-built" map.

 

3. Since I'm not obsessed with chasing peaks on dyno charts, not racing, nor am I preparing for a land speed record attempt, and the bike provides more power than I can use on the road in its present state of tune - why would I need to spend any time or effort at all on mapping?

 

I've re-jetted carbs many times and achieved significant improvements. I put a PC III map in the Guzzi that more'n likely delivers far superior A/F under all road conditions than I could ever hope to achieve with carburetors. As with my carbureted bikes, my seat-o'-the pants dyno says the Guz pulls strong and smooth without hesitation, plugs read fine and mileage is as good as I reckon it gets. Mission accomplished, and for the time being, I reckon I'm done here.

 

There seem to be a few who [ahem] might be spending more time fiddling, tweaking, studying, arguing, acquiring and juggling programming tools, posting, re-posting, and re-re-re-re-mapping than they are riding?! That may be just fine for those who're so inclined, it just doesn't make too much sense to me, but to each his own. As Todd has noted, many guys tend to get deep into this and only wind up making things WORSE!

 

I figure the time I spend on the Guzzi not riding is much better spent dialing-in suspension. Now here's an endeavor where my time-to-value has been significant and more than worthwhile. I've already achieved substantial real-world benefits, and I expect there may be further rewards down the road.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[Alex-Corsa]

David, replied over here:

 

http://guzzitech.com/PHPBB/viewtopic.php?p=241#241

 

... as sport i and centauro don't share ECUs with the V-11s - so pretty irrelevenat on this board.  Would like your feed back.

 

I know that about Sporti's Vs V11 ECU's is just that learning more about the subject is better, perhaps in the future get also a bike with the 15M thingie.

[Alex-Corsa]

Tuneboy, FIM, and Direct-Link, overwrite the map in the ECU, directly.

All that you need is a computer, a special serial cable, the software, and the license key.

They simply flash the ROM.

The only thing that makes TuneBoy, FIM Ultimap, or DirectLink more difficult than a PCIII is that many dyno-tuners will refuse to use it.

 

From my experience with downloaded maps, they are always wrong and benefit from intelligent tweaking. YMMV.

 

PS Hey Antonio, which are you betting on?  TuneBoy or PCIII 

 

Thanks Dave once more you was quite informative on this.

 

David, let's just set the record straight that this is just your opinion. That said, yes every bike should really spend some time on the dyno to assure things are ideal... HOWEVER, from *my* experience, with most maps of exact mods and TPS setting, pre-built maps can be amazingly accurate.

 

Well Dave dafault maps are also very O.K. Read here.Dyno Graphs -German actually from our relative German Guzzi "brotherhood" is a thread about dyno graphs.

The first post in the second page says about the default PCIII map that works quite O.K. with 86,5Wps

 

Definatally dyno runs can help for more personalised maps which the default are not (and they're not supposed to) .I believe that personalising would be when someone reaches for something very exact in the way he rides.But then again to tell you the truth there is difference in ridability in what and how the dyno says and what actually gets on the street.And costs are for everyone up to decide.

 

Personally I would care for mine about having a healthy running motor, and afterwards to fit the gas consumption and power to the level I will need at my way of driving.

[al_roethlisberger]

Thanks Al.  Did you ever get a print out of the "re-map?"  Curious how it is different, and where.  Do you know if it was only at full throttle, or did they remap at all throttle / RPM settings?

 

I'll be getting a look at the stock sport i map.  I think Todd is trying to score the new factory dual plug map.  Anxious to compare those two.

 

In the meantime, I've got the Stein-Dinse analogue curve for dual plugged heads, and now a table from Mike Rich.  They are substantially different, but again only deal with full throttle setting.

 

If you have a print out of your re-mapped ignition I'd love to see it.  I'll start posting any/all findings on the guzzitech tips section (where my "hot rod 101" project resides).  We'll keep the sport i ignition discussion over on guzzitech, but feel free to join in or add.

 

TIA.

 

Pierre

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Nope, and apparently can't easily get it(unless I have FIM or something like TuneBoy).  TLM wouldn't provide their map, as they said it was proprietary to the fella they outsourced this to, and that would be akin to giving it away.

 

So, I have to go on some degree of "trust" for sure, but TLM is a reputable outfit, so I  wasn't too concerned.

 

al

 

[al_roethlisberger]

Thanks Al.  Did you ever get a print out of the "re-map?"  Curious how it is different, and where.  Do you know if it was only at full throttle, or did they remap at all throttle / RPM settings?

 

I'll be getting a look at the stock sport i map.  I think Todd is trying to score the new factory dual plug map.  Anxious to compare those two.

 

In the meantime, I've got the Stein-Dinse analogue curve for dual plugged heads, and now a table from Mike Rich.  They are substantially different, but again only deal with full throttle setting.

 

If you have a print out of your re-mapped ignition I'd love to see it.  I'll start posting any/all findings on the guzzitech tips section (where my "hot rod 101" project resides).  We'll keep the sport i ignition discussion over on guzzitech, but feel free to join in or add.

 

TIA.

 

Pierre

74795[/snapback]

 

 

 

Nope, and apparently can't easily get it(unless I have FIM or something like TuneBoy). TLM wouldn't provide their map, as they said it was proprietary to the fella they outsourced this to, and that would be akin to giving it away.

 

So, I have to go on some degree of "trust" for sure, but TLM is a reputable outfit, so I wasn't too concerned.

 

al

[DeBenGuzzi]

Well answer me this then All mighty forum gods of ECU, Sometimes(rare) when I start my bike it sounds like the cylinders are working against each other runs like pure crap, Dies and a puff of smoke comes up from either the air filters or I don't know what. But then I goto restart it and its fine. Other than that I've had some small pinging and a custom map would be best because right now I have a "best fit" downloaded into it. Otherwise runs great outside of vapor lock.

[Guest ratchethack]

Sometimes(rare) when I start my bike it sounds like the cylinders are working against each other runs like pure crap, Dies and a puff of smoke comes up from either the air filters or I don't know what. But then I goto restart it and its fine.

DeBen, mine and others I'm familiar with rarely cough back thru the TBs on start-up, though it does happen. Seems to me the ECU can occasionally get a little temporarily confused when the temp sensor's dead cold. Since it seems to go away every time, I just ignore it. I wouldn't be concerned unless it starts happening on a regular basis.

 

Other than that I've had some small pinging and a custom map would be best because right now I have a "best fit" downloaded into it. Otherwise runs great outside of vapor lock. 

Mild pinging at certain RPMs under load seems to be pretty common depending on your altitude and the quality of gas you're using. You may or may not be able to map your way around all of it, though it couldn't hurt to try.

[DeBenGuzzi]

DeBen, mine and others I'm familiar with rarely cough back thru the TBs on start-up, though it does happen.  Seems to me the ECU can occasionally get a little temporarily confused when the temp sensor's dead cold.  Since it seems to go away every time, I just ignore it.  I wouldn't be concerned unless it starts happening on a regular basis.

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That is possible its usually initial startup but it has happened once when I Was just riding it not to long b4 I tried to restart it. It scares the hell out of me everytime it happens so I know its happened about 3 times last season in 6k mi. and once last week when I fired her up. But only started after I added all these mods more preciesly the PCIII, tho it ran real bad in other ways b4 I installed it.