ECU Vs PCIII

[Guzzirider]

Isn't it about time we had an ECU forum for people with large brains, spectacles and white coats?

 

I'll avoid it like the plague because I am not intelligent enough to understand all the garble.

 

There seems to be a lot more posts re this than on the Tenni forum.

 

Guy

[Alex-Corsa]

. But only started after I added all these mods more preciesly the PCIII, tho it ran real bad in other ways b4 I installed it. 

 

 

So it's more clear that this had to do with the mapping.Definatelly the sensors have their role on this.(as ratchethack states.)

There you have it.

So WTF is going on these sensors, can't they be changed to some more sophisticated ones.? I wonder what these people doing on these companies,

they are supposed to do so advanced stuff, yet they fail blatandly to do bring the task at hand. Were they drunk when they were producing them??

[Alex-Corsa]

Isn't it about time we had an ECU forum for people with large brains, spectacles and white coats?

 

Yep that will go , but to tell you the truth and from what I hear and see now on ,

Cliff's system (My ECU) seems to be the most intergrated and reliable thing at the moment,yet cost effective- for what it can do.

I wanted to dig the Marelli so I went to the "hard" way of "do it your self" -as allways for the moment and because I never fail I believe my researches will offer me most experience on the subject and I may help some others.

 

And perhaps is a mistake spending all these money(and time) the "other way" I chose, cause I think , if you want your mind at ease and a perfect healthy running bike go buy the MyECU thing

 

I think though that there will come a time that I'll get bored(complete my tunning goals) with all these stuff and start the My16M thingie.

[dlaing]

That is possible its usually initial startup but it has happened once when I Was just riding it not to long b4 I tried to restart it. It scares the hell out of me everytime it happens so I know its happened about 3 times last season in 6k mi. and once last week when I fired her up. But only started after I added all these mods more preciesly the PCIII, tho it ran real bad in other ways b4 I installed it. 

74855[/snapback]

Regardless of what path you take, you should do a fairly meticulous tuneup before going to the dyno.

Set the valves, the air bypass screws, the throttle balance, and the TPS. And Document your exact numbers. You probably won't get the TPS set to exactly 150mV but document what you do set it to, and whether it was with battery only or engine running.

A compression test may be a good idea as you may be wasting money if it turns out you had a bad valve or something.

Cleaning the fuel injectors may be a good idea (I have been meaning to do this....has anyone pulled their injectors....Carl???)

[dlaing]

Well Dave  dafault maps are also very O.K. Read here.Dyno Graphs -German actually from our relative German Guzzi "brotherhood" is a thread about  dyno graphs.

The first post in the second page says about the default PCIII map that works quite O.K. with 86,5Wps

 

Definatally  dyno runs can help for more personalised maps which the default are not (and they're not supposed to) .I believe that personalising would be when someone reaches for something very exact in the way he rides.But then again to tell you the truth there is difference in ridability in what and how the dyno says and what actually gets on the street.And costs are for everyone up to decide.

74824[/snapback]

Thanks for the link.

Do any of the maps on that site indicate performance with a downloaded map and then with a custom map?

When I had my Quat-D done, they ran a before and after, but I think I was on the zero map or the stock map as there was nothing comparable at the time for the Quat-D.

So, it seems it would be common practice to print out a before and after.

I think this may be an example, but few details are given

http://www.guzzitech.com/Dynorun-03LeMans.html

Is that not a typical gain???

Presumably that optimization extends throughout the map.

[Alex-Corsa]

Thanks for the link.

Do any of the maps on that site indicate performance with a downloaded map and then with a custom map?

When I had my Quat-D done, they ran a before and after, but I think I was on the zero map or the stock map as there was nothing comparable at the time for the Quat-D.

 

Well I don't find anything relative at the moment.There are a few diagrams there , mostly on finnal results and when not , there isn't either any PC deafault-custom info.

As I have seen right now the QuatD thing must have the worst performace for the bike compared to others , i.e.MG Ti's(87whp according to thread) or whatever else out there.

[DeBenGuzzi]

Regardless of what path you take, you should do a fairly meticulous tuneup before going to the dyno.

Set the valves, the air bypass screws, the throttle balance, and the TPS. And Document your exact numbers. You probably won't get the TPS set to exactly 150mV but document what you do set it to, and whether it was with battery only or engine running.

A compression test may be a good idea as you may be wasting money if it turns out you had a bad valve or something.

Cleaning the fuel injectors may be a good idea (I have been meaning to do this....has anyone pulled their injectors....Carl???)

74876[/snapback]

Oh thats in the works I'm going to have a full tune up PLUS have this guy I found (recommended by Doug Lofgren) put in shock prook heavy in the tranny and backend then adjust the valves and TB's. THEN I'll goto the dyno but thats ONLY if I can afford it this year. Otherwise I'll just get a smaller version of said tuneup and just insulate the gas lines and wait till next year to finish it up. I only have so much money and so little time.

[Guzzirider]

Thanks for the link.

Do any of the maps on that site indicate performance with a downloaded map and then with a custom map?

When I had my Quat-D done, they ran a before and after, but I think I was on the zero map or the stock map as there was nothing comparable at the time for the Quat-D.

So, it seems it would be common practice to print out a before and after.

I think this may be an example, but few details are given

http://www.guzzitech.com/Dynorun-03LeMans.html

Is that not a typical gain???

Presumably that optimization extends throughout the map.

74880[/snapback]

 

Thats my map David- the lines simply show before PC111, and after PC111 installed and set up on the dyno. I have only ever used a custom map.

 

 

 

Guy

[Guzzirider]

Isn't it about time we had an ECU forum for people with large brains, spectacles and white coats?

 

I'll avoid it like the plague because I am not intelligent enough to understand all the garble.

 

There seems to be a lot more posts re this than on the Tenni forum.

 

Guy 

74860[/snapback]

 

 

Can we call it the Geekcu forum???

[dlaing]

Thats my map David- the lines simply show before PC111, and after PC111 installed and set up on the dyno. I have only ever used a custom map.

Guy 

74902[/snapback]

So the before is without PCIII or with the zero map.

So, that does not help my argument, DRAT!

The dyno tuner I went to recommends putting on a map with the most similar mods prior to the dyno-tune.

But nobody has before and after dynos from that except me.

[Guzzirider]

So the before is without PCIII or with the zero map.

So, that does not help my argument, DRAT!

The dyno tuner I went to recommends putting on a map with the most similar mods prior to the dyno-tune.

But nobody has before and after dynos from that except me.

74989[/snapback]

 

 

Yes thats right- first line is without the PC111 fitted. I was impressed with gains made- especially the torque curve which maxes out at 72 rw ft lbs- more than even Guzzi claim at the crank. The bike was on the dyno for 3 hours (even ran out of petrol) and it made an awesome noise.

 

Hobbsport who did the tuning have a reputation for providing realistic dyno results (i.e. low) but many racers come back to them again and again because they make a difference. They used to run a Guzzi racer in the early 90s and know their onions.

 

I will be returning once my FBF pistons are fitted.

 

Guy

[moto]

David, let's just set the record straight that this is just your opinion. That said, yes every bike should really spend some time on the dyno to assure things are ideal... HOWEVER, from *my* experience, with most maps of exact mods and TPS setting, pre-built maps can be amazingly accurate. I've spoken with well over a hundred people that have taken their bikes to the dyno, and were told that there was no need for a custom map.

  Your "always wrong" statement above is blatantly incorrect, and I'm not sure what qualifies your "experience" with tuning outside of tinkering and taking your bike to a Tuning Link dyno awhile ago. Don't mean to be harsh, but I cannot/will not allow misguided/incorrect information on this subject.

 

  This will be my last post on this topic.

74715[/snapback]

I think there is a chance a pre-fab map can be correct, but my experience corroberates that the chances are slim. Considering how many breakpoints there generally are in a map (multiplied times the number of cylinders), and in the case of Guzzi, temp & pressure correction problems, there are many chances for errors. I have to wonder where the 100 people you spoke with took their bikes.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[moto]

So the before is without PCIII or with the zero map.

So, that does not help my argument, DRAT!

The dyno tuner I went to recommends putting on a map with the most similar mods prior to the dyno-tune.

But nobody has before and after dynos from that except me.

74989[/snapback]

What would help your argument would be to ask for the comparisons for all of the other throttle positions including EGA data.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

[dlaing]

What would help your argument would be to ask for the comparisons for all of the other throttle positions including EGA data.

 

Regards,

 

Derek

 

75301[/snapback]

Agreed.

With tuning link, one can assume the resultant PCIII map is basically EGA data (while not as complete as multi-gas)

If the tuning link targets an A:F ratio of 13.2:1 that is what you will in theory get out of the exhaust. So, you can kind of infer that if the PCIII map goes rich, it was previously indicated as being too lean, and that it is now 13.2:1 or whatever the target was set to.

 

What amazes me, is that so many PCIII maps would work so well when simply downloaded to match the modifications.

Doug Lofgrens test of the two similar Ducatis having different fuel optimizations, makes me have doubts.

My one experience with the Tuning Link producing a map that pings, makes me have doubts.

Derek's proof that Oxygen levels have an undependable relationship with optimization, makes me have doubts.

People who have improved on Creedon chips by custom mapping a PCIII, makes me have doubts.

The recommendation by so many people to get a custom map, makes me have doubts.

My impression that my currrent PCIII map seems to work better when I lean it out in a few places, makes me have doubts.

 

I kind of suspect that the hundreds of people turned away, were probably told that there would be little improvement in power from the $200-$300 tuning-link job.

That I would believe, but I think the only way to prove that there would be little improvement is to run the dyno through the map positions analyzing the exhaust gas and the power...in which case they might as well re-map it...

[dlaing]

The bike was on the dyno for 3 hours (even ran out of petrol) and it made an awesome noise.

74990[/snapback]

A guzzi in a dyno booth is a beautiful sound!

3 hours on the dyno!

I suspect they did more than just use the tuning link to flatten the indicated lambda.

They must have been tuning for power and or rideability.