V11 gearbox mod.

[pete roper]

OK, Tomorrow I'm supposed to be getting a bloke with a V11 in for a service and examination. He hasn't been happy with the service from the local *official* dealer so he thinks he'll give me a go.

 

OK but his bike is one of the ones subject to the safety recall for the exploding shift dogs. Now, the bike went into the *official* workshop after an considerable length of time waiting for parts and then, voila! it was done and he got the bike back a day or so later.

 

Now, I dunno, I know this shop don't shift a heap of Guzzis and even I think that I'd be hard pushed to remove a gearbox from a V11, replace the all the warraty bits and get it back to the owner in 24 hours, especially if I was less familliar with the bikes than I am???? The owner also is suspicious because he can see NO SIGN AT ALL of the box having been opened. Perhaps I'm particularly hopeless but if I take something apat and put it back together again there ill always be evidence? A slight nick in the finish? Oil stains, (even after de-greasing and steam cleaning.) little tings that are noticeably different, a trace of gasket goo where there was none before etc?

 

My dilema is what can I actually do? The exploding shift dogs is a rare and isolated problem, it was only encountered on a few of the production run BUT it is a major safety issue. If they do let go the box will almost certainly lock up. But I can't tell the bloke it has to be done again and the parts *look* identical as it's a treatment problem apparently. That makes it my word against that of the local *dealer* and even though at last count his 'Chief Mechanic' was a second year apprentice working unsupervised I can scarecely confront them about it. As I say tough I'm really concerned for the blokes safety if it hasn't been done, (The prevailing attitude I'll bet was 'Take it out for a ride, feels OK, give it back, tell him the work has been done!' Not only does it make me worry about his safety but what about mine? I work on the bike, it goes out, the gearbox explodes and he's seriously injured. Who's at fault? The last person to work on the bike I'd guess

 

So what O great wise ones should I do?????

 

Pete

[g.forrest]

is this a guzzi from the dark side by chance.?

OK, Tomorrow I'm supposed to be getting a bloke with a V11 in for a service and examination. He hasn't been happy with the service from the local *official* dealer so he thinks he'll give me a go.

 

OK but his bike is one of the ones subject to the safety recall for the exploding shift dogs. Now, the bike went into the *official* workshop after an considerable length of time waiting for parts and then, voila! it was done and he got the bike back a day or so later.

 

Now, I dunno, I know this shop don't shift a heap of Guzzis and even I think that I'd be hard pushed to remove a gearbox from a V11, replace the all the warraty bits and get it back to the owner in 24 hours, especially if I was less familliar with the bikes than I am???? The owner also is suspicious because he can see NO SIGN AT ALL of the box having been opened. Perhaps I'm particularly hopeless but if I take something apat and put it back together again there ill always be evidence? A slight nick in the finish? Oil stains, (even after de-greasing and steam cleaning.) little tings that are noticeably different, a trace of gasket goo where there was none before etc?

 

My dilema is what can I actually do? The exploding shift dogs is a rare and isolated problem, it was only encountered on a few of the production run BUT it is a major safety issue. If they do let go the box will almost certainly lock up. But I can't tell the bloke it has to be done again and the parts *look* identical as it's a treatment problem apparently. That makes it my word against that of the local *dealer* and even though at last count his 'Chief Mechanic' was a second year apprentice working unsupervised I can scarecely confront them about it. As I say tough I'm really concerned for the blokes safety if it hasn't been done, (The prevailing attitude I'll bet was 'Take it out for a ride, feels OK, give it back, tell him the work has been done!' Not only does it make me worry about his safety but what about mine? I work on the bike, it goes out, the gearbox explodes and he's seriously injured. Who's at fault? The last person to work on the bike I'd guess

 

So what O great wise ones should I do?????

 

Pete

75878[/snapback]

[dlaing]

I'd stick to checking that adjuster under the acorn is adjusted correctly, that the shift lever is adjusted correctly, that the accessible bolts are tight, and that the Yak fat was replaced.

Test ride it, and recommend he switch to Redline Shockproof heavy after the next rainy season.

Oh, and maybe bleed the clutch for him.

If there are any signs of the gearbox being removed, it might be in the counter sunk bolts that hold on the clutch cylinder.

[pete roper]

If there are any signs of the gearbox being removed, it might be in the counter sunk bolts that hold on the clutch cylinder.

75885[/snapback]

 

Thanks. that's the sort of info I need. I have yet to have a V11 box apart so I don't know what's what. While I'm not completely mongoloid actually asking others with more experience always seems like the sensible option, to me at least, the local *official* dealer seems to think otherwise <_>

 

Pete

[mike wilson]

Thanks. that's the sort of info I need. I have yet to have a V11 box apart so I don't know what's what. While I'm not completely mongoloid actually asking others with more experience always seems like the sensible option, to me at least, the local *official* dealer seems to think otherwise <_>

 

Pete

75898[/snapback]

 

If it's a treatment problem, is there any way of running a simple (for example) hardness test against a known good part? Any non-destructive testers near you? If (as it seems) the owner is aware of a potential problem, he might (I _certainly_ would) spring for the cost.

 

mike

[g.forrest]

''pete maybe its time you came out '' there could be a local that could help.

Thanks. that's the sort of info I need. I have yet to have a V11 box apart so I don't know what's what. While I'm not completely mongoloid actually asking others with more experience always seems like the sensible option, to me at least, the local *official* dealer seems to think otherwise <_>

 

Pete

75898[/snapback]

[mike wilson]

Two other things.

 

1. Doesn't the warranty repairer have to ship the old parts to the importer? If so, you can ask if it has been done that way.

 

2. I think you know what you are going to do. You don't strike me as someone who would play the odds. Especially with someone's life.

 

m

[Baldini]

It should be obvious, like you say if box has been out/apart, just down to crap covering the mounts & joints, gaskets (different gasket goo to normal? - no gaskets on V11 box), marked up bolts/screws etc. You'll know when you see it.

 

As Mike says - the old parts should be out to see, or been sent back to importer - tho in itself that's no proof - they could be out of another box!

 

You want to help but it's down to the customer to chase the dealer if he thinks the job's not been done. Has he been to dealer re his concerns? You can offer an opinion but it can't be your responsibility.

 

 

Good luck, KB

[Guest Nogbad]

I would say try to identify the whereabouts of the removed parts and get sight of them to check they are in fact obviously used.

 

When mine came back I could see that the lower nuts of the porkchops had been off, the paint flakes slightly where the nut was done up in a slightly different position. The gearbox had oily fingermarks in places you wouldn't normally see although the outside had been wiped down. There was obvious new gasket cement showing at the joints. The pinch bolt on the front u/j had spanner marks and there were scuffs on the edge of the u/j guard where the socket had hit as the bolt was undone or done up. The even coating of road grime was removed in places around the front of the swingarm. I could tell the crossover had been off as the pattern of carbon from inevitable tiny leaks at the joints was disrupted.

 

OYB (A big multifranchise dealer) had my bike for 4 days total, and I know it was in the workshop for two.

 

Hope this helps in your search for evidence.

[Greg Field]

Pete: The box does not have to come out, I think. There's a trapdoor in the left side of the box. Take that off for access to the parts. Look for new gasket goo around that trapdoor. I think Jason at MI said he could do at least two recalls in a work day. If you need more info, let me know, or call the shop. 206 297-3822.

[Guest ratchethack]

Pete: The box does not have to come out, I think. There's a trapdoor in the left side of the box. Take that off for access to the parts. Look for new gasket goo around that trapdoor. I think Jason at MI said he could do at least two recalls in a work day. If you need more info, let me know, or call the shop. 206 297-3822.

75924[/snapback]

Greg, you might be thinking of the procedure for the pawl spring? This can be replaced thru the side cover as you mentioned.

 

The box has to come out for the recall. This will be obvious by the contents of the recall kit. The parts are a sliding muff and a couple other items that make it necessary for the shafts to come out and be re-stacked. Yep, the official replacement parts LOOK identical to the ones in question.

 

From a liability standpoint, it's at least potentially a serious booby-trap, IMHO. I ain't a Pro, but I'm savvy enough to be chronically lawyer-phobic. I probably wouldn't touch it unless I could sell the guy on the wisdom of replacing the parts in the recall kit - and I'd certainly document it very carefully.

 

There will certainly be unmistakable indications if the box has been out as Pete said that won't require Sherlock Holmes to ID! I was far more careful and meticulous than most Pro's would have been IMHO - and an experienced eye can tell from a quick, fairly casual inspection.

 

I took my box out and brought it to my local dealer after he had about a dozen recall procedures under his belt. He had it back on the counter ready for me to re-install inside of 2 hours.

 

MGNA is (or was) tracking completed recalls thru the dealerships here in the US. I've got the "official" dealer signoff on completion of the work. Lacking this and any obvious evidence that the box has been out, I'd say it's safe to conclude it hasn't been done.

 

I had my box back in the same day and was riding the next. For me, it'd be possible to turn it around start-to-finish in 24 hrs, Pete, but I reckon I'd hafta take the phone off the hook and maybe skip a meal. For YOU? - no problemo!

[Paul Minnaert]

Greg, the door left doesn't give access to the right in the box, where one of the parts is that needs changed. From what I remember these are parts on seconday shaft and transmission shaft. If you are no magician that would require taking the shafts out.

 

Things behind the "door" are limited to the sping things.

[dlaing]

Pete: The box does not have to come out, I think. There's a trapdoor in the left side of the box. Take that off for access to the parts. Look for new gasket goo around that trapdoor. I think Jason at MI said he could do at least two recalls in a work day. If you need more info, let me know, or call the shop. 206 297-3822.

75924[/snapback]

Do you mean the box does not have to come out for Pete to inspect the work or to complete the recall work?

I am pretty sure the box has to come out to complete the recall, although they save alot of time if they only replace parts accessible through the left cover. <_>

Wasn't there some dealer in the US that claimed to do the recall work on a bike with a salvaged title or something like that, but the tranny failed, was taken apart, and it was discovered the work had not been done.

I think that dealer only took the chance on making free money from MGNA because the bike was a salvage job....but I may be off on some details, like maybe it was not a salvage job and it did not fail, etc.

If you search the forum, the story is here some place. EDIT I just tried searching and could not find it. Does anyone else remember the story?

It seems to me that not completing the work is grossly negligent, and as big as bonehead that this dealer seems to be, it is highly unlikely that they would stoop so low...but the story I just mentioned shows it is possible for people to be so greedy or lazy.

[luhbo]

Mine was not opened also. The dealer of the previous owner told him it would not be really necessary so they left it closed. Gears like it dark, he said.

Now that I own the bike I ask me whether it would make sense to look after this anyway.

 

Can anyone point me to where I find a detailed description of what parts should be changed, please? What was the quality issue that lead to the recall? Hardening fault, bad tolerances, or what?

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Hubert

 

BTW, the box worked absolutely flawless for 55000 km so far. Thats why I'd like to know what the fault was. Maybe there is a chance that not all bikes suffer from that.

[docc]

The parts that were improperly heat treated were the sliding dogs. The washers in the cush drive ( on the right side) were also upgraded but i'm not sure that was from heat treating issues. There are those here on the forumwho could be much more specific than this.

 

It is likely that well in advance of a lock up the box would begin to miss shifts as wear to the sliding dogs allowed increased tolrances and lots of ' missed' gears. Wear in the cush drive shows up as excessive driveline lash.

 

By 2002 these issues were apparently solved in production. Also evident by that time was the new black, rubbery sealant replacing the earlier thin, brown olive oil based stuff. If the brown sealant is still visible on the rear case cover then surely no one has opened it.