head retorqueing question

[bigbikerrick]

when I did the first valve adjustment at 3500 miles on my 2003 v11(actually an 02) I just set the valves to world specs but did not re torque the head first. The bike has been running perfect, but I think with 7500 miles now I will re check the valve clearances again to be sure alls well. my question, is ,is it really inportant to torque the heads at this mileage? or is just making sure the valve clearances are ok enough? also if I DO need to torque the heads , do I need to loosen the head bolts and then re torque them ,or just check for sufficient torque? Thanks, folks!

[Murray]

No never done it in 98 000km's seems to be a air head BM thing. If you are feeling especailly paraniod you can check them after an intial period from new (like 7500 miles). Constant retorquing will steadily compress the base gasket and head gasket until they fail. Youa re probally quiet safe in just doing the valve clearnces.

[Dan M]

when I did the first valve adjustment at 3500 miles on my 2003  v11(actually an 02) I just set the valves to world specs but did not re torque the head first. The bike has been running perfect, but I think with 7500 miles now I will re check the valve clearances again to be sure alls well. my question, is ,is it really inportant to torque the heads at this mileage? or is just making sure the valve clearances are ok enough? also if I DO need to torque the heads , do I need to loosen the head bolts and then re torque them ,or just check for sufficient torque? Thanks, folks!

78145[/snapback]

 

It is recommended at low mileage just to be sure they are not too loose after the gasket has been compressed, bolts stretched, and the engine has been through many heat / cold cycles. Not usually necessary but easy once you are in to do the valves. Only need to do it once after the head has been installed (either at the factory or after engine work). Loosen & retorque one at a time.

[Guest ratchethack]

The heads should only be re-torqued once for every new set of head gaskets. Do you think your dealer actually did it at first service? What d'you bet they skipped it, since you'd likely never know...

 

One technique is to carefully back 'em all the way off gradually, IN cross-head SEQUENCE, and then bring 'em back to spec same way. Many guys just skip the back-off and torque 'em in sequence. Don't forget there's one "buried" beneath the 0-ringed "cover" (the most inboard one on each side) - & you hafta take the rocker shafts out to get to it at TDC on each side. You hafta be careful to get all the shaft springs & shims back in the same sequence. Also - you might need to get a little bit creative to get a hex drive and extension in there under the cover - you'll see.

 

When I did mine at 10K miles, a few were as much as 20% down, so when in doubt about whether or not it was ever done by the dealer, I reckon it's a good idea.

 

see discussion here: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6326&hl=

 

EDIT: NEVER back just one out all the way - ALWAYS do 'em ALL, GRADUALLY, IN SEQUENCE, or you could warp the heads!!

 

I'd never consider letting anyone else do this, 'cause VERY FEW service dep't's. are gonna take the care that I take to do it right. 'Cept for a few - and Roper's on the wrong side of the planet from me.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

 

[Steve G.]

Initial break-in of an alloy engine, with minimal head torque values, re-torqueing is quite important. Cast iron engines have a much higher head bolt torque, and is not needed after initial bolt together torque together.

With a Moto Guzzi engine, once initial re-torque is done at the dealer, no other re-torque is needed. Air cooled engines which have either cast iron barrels with aluminium head, or, [in very rare cases] iron head/aluminium barrels, re-torqueing is part of the regular maintenance schedule.

A previous entry to this thread stating BMW airheads require regular re-torqueing is false. These engines, from the early eighties on, share the same mechanical characteristics with 'modern' Moto Guzzi's, with nicasil coated cylinders. I know of two of these engines, one my brothers, with 160,000kms, and a friends, with 320,000kms, both unopened, and just the later starting to burn oil, and neither having head gasket issues.

Ciao, Steve G.

[Frenchbob]

Initial break-in of an alloy engine, with minimal head torque values, re-torqueing is quite important. Cast iron engines have a much higher head bolt torque, and is not needed after initial bolt together torque together.

With a Moto Guzzi engine, once initial re-torque is done at the dealer, no other re-torque is needed. Air cooled engines which have either cast iron barrels with aluminium head, or, [in very rare cases] iron head/aluminium barrels, re-torqueing is part of the regular maintenance schedule.

A previous entry to this thread stating BMW airheads require regular re-torqueing is false. These engines, from the early eighties on, share the same mechanical characteristics with 'modern' Moto Guzzi's, with nicasil coated cylinders. I know of two of these engines, one my brothers, with 160,000kms, and a friends, with 320,000kms, both unopened, and just the later starting to burn oil, and neither having head gasket issues.

                                                                                    Ciao, Steve G.

78182[/snapback]

 

That's spot-on, and you never undo the head bolts unless you intend taking the head off. Unless you've disturbed the gasket, just check the clearances as normal.

[jrt]

The heads on Guzzi's did need to be retorqued for the earlier (round head) models. They used a different cylinder material though- maybe that's the reason?

My understanding is that everyone above is correct- late model Guzzi's don't need retorquing.

[pete roper]

Several factors at work here. as Jason said the earlier models had cast iron rocker carriers so there were differential thermal expansion issues. Does this really make any difference? Dunno really .

 

As for the newer models? Well it's my opinion that nowadays at the factory the head nuts are initially over torqued. In fact on some of the 1100 Sport models thare was a spate of stud breakages that would tend to support this hypothesis. Anyway, I've generally found on the V11's that when you try to crack off the nuts it is obvious that they are done up WAY tighter than 34 ft/lbs although I haven't tried to stick a torque wrench on 'em to undo 'em and anyway that would give a false reading as static friction is greater than sliding friction.

 

So, while it is probably not neccesary to re-torque the heads it will certainly do no harm. The process is pretty simple, there are six nuts including the sleeve nut under the plug covering the stud closest to the spine that will require a 10mm allen key socket to get at. Crack all the nuts off a bit at a time. Once the nuts are loose you can just wind 'em right off. Make sure the threads are lubricated and re-install the nuts and re torque 'em in two or three steps to 34 ft/lbs. Re install the plug over the sleeve nut, re set the tappets, stick the rocker cover on, go ride.

 

The Kingerlite gaskets used on these motors are a bit prone to collapsing but on most engines it isn't really an issue. On any motor I rebuild though my modus opperandi is to start the enw motor and get it hot. Allow it to cool down overnight and then re-torque the heads. then at the first service at 500 mile/800Km I retorque 'em again with the engine cold after which I never touch 'em again until the heads come off again.

 

Oh, and for the record the washers and spring on the rocker spindles, from the *top* go steel washer, spring, brass/bronze washer, rocker, bronze washer.

 

Note that the Breva/Griso now use non compressible steel gaskets so te-torquing should be a thing of the past!

 

Pete

[bigbikerrick]

Thanks to all for your responses, I bought my v 11 used with 3000 miles from the original owner, he took it to Orange County Motorsports for its first service,( the dealer where the bike was purchased) so I dont know if they re torqued the heads, or "overlooked " it. I guess I would be better off leaving well enough alone, because if they did retorque them and I loosen them up,and re tighten, It wouldnt be good for the gaskets that are already compressed, correct? The bike is running perfect with the Ti exhaust/kit, ecu combo. I dont know if it may do more harm than good to disturb the head torque........

[pete roper]

Psst! It's running really good! We can't have that! All the pissers and moaners who say that Guzzi's are unreliable will choke on their custard. I suggest that you start off by taking the dipstick out and puting a handfull of gravel in the sump. Then you could fill the cells of the battery with bi-carbonate of soda and pry the seals out of the wheel bearings! That will prove how terrible they are and everyone will be happy!

 

Why do you lot have to do this ? If it's working well then LEAVE IT THE F*CK ALONE!!!! Otherwise Jaap will send one of these round to see you

 

 

Or worse still Tex will turn up and show you his holiday snaps

 

Pete, "I'll spear a whale to make a sale!" Roper

 

Pete

[bigbikerrick]

Psst! It's running really good! We can't have that! All the pissers and moaners who say that Guzzi's are unreliable will choke on their custard. I suggest that you start off by taking the dipstick out and puting a handfull of gravel in the sump. Then you could fill the cells of the battery with bi-carbonate of soda and pry the seals out of the wheel bearings! That will prove how terrible they are and everyone will be happy!

 

Why do you lot have to do this ? If it's working well then LEAVE IT THE F*CK ALONE!!!! Otherwise Jaap will send one of these round to see you

 

 

Or worse still Tex will turn up and show you his holiday snaps

 

Pete, "I'll spear a whale to make a sale!" Roper    

 

Pete

78277[/snapback]

Ok Pete, are you trying to beat out TX for the forum "funny guy" contest?? My wife tells me the same shit all the time,, " If the bike aint broke, then why are you Fuc---g with it?" I guess the Guzzi is just a bike that loves owner innvolvement, and it seems every thing I do to the blessed machine makes it "feel/run" better or smoother.. I could spray some friggen WD 40 on the seat, jump on it and go for a ride, and it will shift smoother, and sound better! man , I love this bike!!

[beauchemin]

EDIT:  NEVER back just one out all the way - ALWAYS do 'em ALL, GRADUALLY, IN SEQUENCE, or you could warp the heads!!

 

Are you sure about this? I can see how this advice relates to a multi-cylinder head, but is it actually possible to warp a Guzzi head?

[Guest ratchethack]

Well, I reckon I'm about as sure as I can be, but I ain't a Pro mechanic, either. I DO know that it's a hard-and-fast rule on any cylinder head, single cylinder or multi. I figure there's a good reason every manual I've ever had my hands on (for single-cylinder engines as well as multi's) specifies a careful cross-head tightening - and loosening - sequence.

 

I've done "interventions" on more'n one single with alloy head as part of a successful "12-step recovery" from a warped head and blown head gasket (perpetrated by a PO). I've rebuilt a pretty good-size pile of both alloy head and cast iron head singles and multis, most of 'em air-cooled. I've never warped a head - but I always follow the rule.

 

Just because I'm anal about all my rebuilds, (and have no desire to warp or crack a head that I just painstakingly refurbed!), I've always taken my head torque both up and down in 3 intermediate steps in proper sequence just to be safe. Guys with specific experience on specific heads more'n likely do it in 2 steps in many cases 'cause they know by experience that it works just fine, but that'd just be spec on my part. Better safe than sorry.

 

Would you be willing to take a chance?

 

Where's Pete?

[motoguzznix]

bigbiker

 

If you are not sure whether the head was retightened or not during the 1st inspection by the dealer, I would check it!

Loosen the nuts just 1/8 of one revolution (to overcome the breaking torque) and retighten it with 40 Nm. When you put a mark on every nut and bolt with a paint marker prior to start the work, you can check if the nut is tighter than before or not. Retighten first the 4 longer studs crosswise, then the 2 short ones. Loosen and retorque one nut after the other, do not loosen them all together!

In the earlier days, the head gasket material made it more important to retighten the heads, on the V50/65 bikes you could be absolutely sure the head gasket would fail if not retorqued at the 1st service. Todays gaskets used in the current production are less sensitive in this respect.

When you reassemble the engine with new aftermarket gaskets, it is absolutely necessary to retighten the heads as Pete stated before. I do it the same way.

On any motor I rebuild though my modus opperandi is to start the new motor and get it hot. Allow it to cool down overnight and then re-torque the heads. then at the first service at 500 mile/800Km I retorque 'em again with the engine cold after which I never touch 'em again until the heads come off again.