Buell vs Triumph

[Steve G.]

The warmest day of the year this Saturday. 65 glorious degrees. My buddy the moto journalist stops by to use one of my bikes on a mag article. He's on a Buell Canada Ulysses journalist loaner for a couple months.

After taking rolling shots and static shots in and around historic Fort Langley, we traded to head back to the pub. Initial impressions were neutral, as in I could barely get it out of neutral. After heading out it's apparent this thing has a VERY stiff shifter. The thing rattles and shakes, and I'm sure there will soon be lots of bits falling off. As for it being off road capable, I should have been tipped off by the mag wheels. The thing has a turning circle wider than a 4 door Buick. It will not turn inside the width of a North American road. It will be pitifully useless off road. Power, well, it does loft the front in first, but it's all over very fast, disapointing really. It feels plasticy, rattly, loosey goosey. Piece of crap really. Back firing, stalling, surging. Do they actually have engineers at HD? That they are trying to sell these Buells as the latest technogy is laughable, as it's basically a 1950's VL under the fake fuel tank.

As we talked over the two machines we had traded across, the Jota was a much more robust and solid machine, with an engine that, even being 25 yrs the Buell's senior, and 70,000 more miles, felt more advanced and tracked through a corner with much more stability and confidence. I then figured it would be timely to take the promised test ride of the big Rocket 111, Hinckley. Off to the dealer and was riding it in 10 minutes. This is a very different beast. I'm not big on the feet forward/hands above my elbows thing. But it was the engine that was an eye opener, as it's all torque. We like to wax poetic about our lovely Moto Guzzi's torque. It is ok for a 1100 cc engine, and I know it's not fair to compare 1100 to 2300 cc. But, shit, this thing is hand of god grunt from 600rpm at 20 kmh in high gear, and I had trouble holding on at 200kms [125mph]. It is a cruiser, and as result I was grinding crap all over, scarey really. But slow speed very easy to manage, way better than the Buell, and handled very stable in high speed corners, where it showed it's girth by having very slow steering, and turning wide on the outside of the corners all the time. No rattles, vibes, everything looked quality compared to the "kids toys" look to the Buell switchgear and guages. I think Triumph has turned the tide, and has found it's identity in the 3 cylinder engine. Buell continues to feel and look like a kit bike. I just don't understand what the appeal is with the 45 degree v-twin, except for the nice sound it makes when on the power. It has no primary or seconday balance, it makes no sense except as a sedate cruiser engine. The Ulysses is a failure!

Ciao, Steve G.

[Guest Nogbad]

Was it really that bad? I haven't tried a Ulysses but the Firebolt doesn't vibrate intrusively and everything seemed tight and well put together. The shift whilst not Jap slick is no worse than my V11, and may be a bit better. The engine certainly felt strong and smooth.

 

I have had a sit on a Ulysses, first I couldn't get both feet down even tiptoe, and the seat is so wide I felt like the ligaments on the inside of my thighs were being torn off my skeleton. The wide seat is the problem for me. I was told the one I was sitting on had the low seat option so help me God if I ever had to ride the standard one.

 

Maybe the one you tried had been wrecked by journos

[Steve G.]

Was it really that bad? I haven't tried a Ulysses but the Firebolt doesn't vibrate intrusively and everything seemed tight and well put together. The shift whilst not Jap slick is no worse than my V11, and may be a bit better. The engine certainly felt strong and smooth.

 

I have had a sit on a Ulysses, first I couldn't get both feet down even tiptoe, and the seat is so wide I felt like the ligaments on the inside of my thighs were being torn off my skeleton. The wide seat is the problem for me. I was told the one I was sitting on had the low seat option so help me God if I ever had to ride the standard one.

 

Maybe the one you tried had been wrecked by journos

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Golly I wish it were the case, but this machine had 4000, kms, just out from a full dealer prep.

Gosh, believe me when I say I wanted this thing to work. I don't go into a new ride on a machine with anything but neutral thoughts. Having 5 totally different machines from 5 different makes makes me think I approach each bike without favourites or bias. I know the shortcomings of a V11, and as it is also a v-twin, I was able to use it as a cross reference with engine characteristics. The V11 has a much more appealing power band. I can understand they may have a bigger flywheel on the Ulysses for off road use. It wasn't it's power output so much as I think Buell still hasn't got the EFI figured out on these things. It stalled at almost every stop light, when I turned the throttle to engage the clutch, it would spit, try to catch, I'd pull the clutch in, blip it to save it, it would spit back again, and die. This would be followed by a mad stab at the starter with throttle 3/4 and clutch out at 4000rpm. Pissed me right off. One thing I failed to enhance on was the minimal lock to lock on the steering, with huge turning circle. Inexcusable on a machine billed as on capable of the odd off road jaunt, but even too much for a street bike. I can only think this was done so they could save money by not having to remold a new fuel [fake] tank.

Not sure if the shifting linkage on the Firebolt is similar to the Ulysses, but it was almost the worst I've ever experienced. I honestly initially thought it was a right hand shift/left hand brake, and I was trying to lift the brake pedal.

The handling was very odd for me, almost unstable, but I find the all Buells feel inherently unstable, almost as if ready for an instant tank slapper. Again, using my series 1 V11 as an example, with it's known lack of stability compared to the post '02 models, I still feel the V11 has an advantage, as I've ridden with buddies on their Firebolts up to Whistler, and they generally held me up everywhere.

I have to get back to this engine, which while it has a place in a cruiser mode, placing it in a frame and selling it as a cutting edge alternative to the current competition, is embarassing. The same goes with the duel purpose competition, gosh it's just embarassing.

I don't normally rag on a bike after a test on one. I wangle myself onto most bikes during a riding season. It's just that this one was so bad, I had to vent.

Ciao, Steve G.

[Guest Nogbad]

I can't say. All I can say is I wouldn't have bought a Firebolt if the engine had been snatchy and the EFI as you say. I hope mine is as good as the one I tested, but the demo Firebolt pulled smoothly from any revs in any gear, and was less vibratory than the V11, particularly if "lugged". The gearchange was fine, and the clutch OK ish, if a trifle heavy compared with the V11. Nowhere near as heavy as the old Brits though.

 

As you say, the steering lock needs to be good on a dual sport bike. I'm surprised it isn't on the Uly, because I think the frame is all new and they would surely have been able to get the characteristics the designers wanted. If the lock is poor, it isn't because they reused the lightning / firebolt frame.

 

I quite liked the look of it when it came out, but having sat on one, I now realise even with the low seat option you have to be 6'3" tall at least. I sure don't get the poor steering lock - kind of fundamental to a bike with offroad pretensions.

[Jock Guzzi]

Glad I've just not bought a brand new Buell then... sorry Nogbad

[Guest Nogbad]

Glad I've just not bought a brand new Buell then... sorry Nogbad 

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Don't apologise. There are plenty people out there ready to slag off the Guzzi, and my red frame is great. I fully expect my Buell to be good too. The finish is nice, the design well integrated and the test bike I rode was smooth with everything working well. If you don't take to a bike, it can feel crap and you would say as much. I rode a Honda Hornet last year, and these things are meant to be good. I hated it, I thought the suspension soggy, the engine gutless and buzzy and the brakes snatchy. Plenty of people love them.

 

If my Buell turns out to be crap, I will be on here saying so objectively.

[Guest davidb]

Everyone has their views, so heres mine. Buells are not normally like that. They can hold their own in the twisties with the short wheel base, loft the front and keep it up,and are no less reliable than a V11. That would be the first one that I have rode with that kills at the stops, etc. I live in a area where there is a lot of buells and I ride with them all over the mountains. They turn on a dime. The power band is short, but it will give (and sometimes beat) a V11 bike a good race. The early ones had reliability problems, but buell honors the warranty far better than HD, BMW or MG. The new ones are more technically advanced than the Guzzi under your butt with the oil/air cooling (stole from BMW, which by the way will smoke your Guzzi. I had both) and the low cost/ upgrade ecu. The one you road was probably in need of repair or just a piece of shit like my v11 was. All manufactors make good and some lemon bikes. I, and some other members on this site had a bad one. That will not stop me from looking at MG when the NEW (redesigned) models come out. The thing that hurts MG, Aprilia, BMW KTM and a few others, is that the dealers are far apart, getting fewer, and the wait on parts is assinine. This is really going to hurt BMW in the near future as it has already affected sales on both MG and BMW compared with the amount of bikes sold from all dealers. BMW profits may be up, but so is the price of the new models. MG is dumping them on the west coast. You can but a brand new 2003 for 7500$ out the door. If Aprilia had more models, (entry 600cc to touring) more dealer locations, and parts, they would really grab a portion of the US market because they have been real reliable and are fast, handle superbly, and are real pretty (like my r1100s Boxer cup replika. )

[Steve G.]

Everyone has their views, so heres mine. Buells are not normally like that. They can hold their own in the twisties with the short wheel base, loft the front and keep it up,and are no less reliable than a V11. That would be the first one that I have rode with that kills at the stops, etc. I live in a area where there is a lot of buells and I ride with them all over the mountains. They turn on a dime. The power band is short, but it will give (and sometimes beat) a V11 bike a good race. The early ones had reliability problems, but buell honors the warranty far better than HD, BMW or MG. The new ones are more technically advanced than the Guzzi under your butt with the oil/air cooling (stole from BMW, which by the way will smoke your Guzzi. I had both) and the low cost/ upgrade ecu. The one you road was probably in need of repair or just a piece of shit like my v11 was. All manufactors make good and some lemon bikes. I, and some other members on this site had a bad one. That will not stop me from looking at MG when the NEW (redesigned)  models come out. The thing that hurts MG, Aprilia, BMW KTM and a few others, is that the dealers are far apart, getting fewer, and the wait on parts is assinine. This is really going to hurt BMW in the near future as it has already affected sales on both MG and BMW compared with the amount of bikes sold from all dealers. BMW profits may be up, but so is the price of the new models. MG is dumping them on the west coast. You can but a brand new 2003 for 7500$ out the door. If Aprilia had more models, (entry 600cc to touring)  more dealer locations, and parts, they would really grab a portion of the US market because they have been real reliable and are fast, handle superbly, and are real pretty (like my r1100s Boxer cup replika. )

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I've had seat time on a BCR BMW and other 1100S's, and indeed, the surefootedness of the BMW front end is remarkable, farsuperior in real world use [excluding race track pro riding ] than any regular fork. The BMW after all these years, still has issues with surging on the oilheads, and have had since 1994 to figure it out. A recent ride on a new 1200S confirms that the German idea of a dialed in EFI is not mine, it's still shite.

What I think it comes down to for me, is that Moto Guzzi is not really trying to sell these V11's as modern engines, which is correct. BMW's engines have liquid cooling, [oil, but still liquid] 4 valve heads, and modern combustion chamber shapes. They have a distinct advantage, and should be more powerfull with more user friendly power. Buell, which is trying to sell their product using words like "Cutting Edge", and other terms describing these things as the latest greatest, is, in my thoughts, a fraud. An argument can be made that their frame is unique [although the isolastic system was copied directly from the late '60's Nortons] but the engine is clearly a tractor engine from the '50's, made into unit construction with overhead valves. Now, if this is workable for you, then great, get one and enjoy it. But selling these machines using the current sales pitch, is laughable.

A perfect example of how far these things are away from current engineering levels: The AMA [American Motorcyclist Assoc] has just allowed Buell to run in the Formula Extreme series, with the first race at Daytona I think in early March. These guys "think" that the 1200cc Buells will be able to keep up with the Jap 600cc's. I tell you what, they are going to have to tune these things to the edge of the cliff, to attempt this over 200 miles. If I was on one, I'd be asking for a scattershield to protect me from the piston that's going to be aimed right at my Bollocks! If you're into seeing engines sent past their service life, watch the Daytona Extreme race, it will be great.

Ciao, Steve G.

[Guzzirider]

In last weeks MCN they say that Buell are planning to make a road legal version of their limited edition race bike.

 

Sometimes you have take what MCN say with a pinch of salt but if it is true then maybe the bigger motor will take the performance up another level.

 

I think the race bike's claimed stats are 150bhp and 160kgs- if the road bike makes say, 120bhp and weighs 185kgs then it will still be pretty quick.

 

Guy

[DeBenGuzzi]

I'll have to wait until test rides are in order because I'm down to 1200GS who some think is shite and Ulysses who some think is Shite, I don't think there is a bike out there someone Doesn't think is shite. BUT I listen to the views on this board more than most mag's you've all been there done that kind of approach I don't have.

[Guest davidb]

I don't think we will ever see a buell on the podium unless they build a four banger. On the mountain roads (paved) they do great. All engines are old world technology. Indian had a four banger (sidways) before the japanese bikes became popular. If you don't like Buell, thats fine, alot of other people do and there technology is not one bit behind any other builder because it uses pushrods. They all have pistons in a few different configurations. Is a vtx 1800 obsolete because its a v twin? Alot of bike builders still use pushrod engines. If buell changed to chaindriven overhead cams, I wouldnt consider it "state of the art" MG tried this already too. Some Japanese v twins are ovc and they run slower than the compitition. When builds a hydrogen powered bike for production, then maybe buell, MG and the rest will be obsolete. The bmw r1200gs has proven itself to be reliable so far as I read on adventurerider, bmw sport touring sites. I think the verdict is still out for the buell Ul. A problem to keep in mind is dealer availibility and cost of maintenanace. This is where I believe BMW is back sliding.

[DeBenGuzzi]

I don't think we will ever see a buell on the podium unless they build a four banger. On the mountain roads (paved) they do great. All engines are old world technology. Indian had a four banger (sidways) before the japanese bikes became popular. If you don't like Buell, thats fine, alot of other people do and there technology is not one bit behind any other builder because it uses pushrods. They all have pistons in a few different configurations. Is a vtx 1800 obsolete because its a v twin? Alot of bike builders still use pushrod engines. If buell changed to chaindriven overhead cams, I wouldnt consider it "state of the art" MG tried this already too. Some Japanese v twins are ovc and they run slower than the compitition. When builds a hydrogen powered bike for production, then maybe buell,  MG and the rest will be obsolete. The bmw r1200gs has proven itself to be reliable so far as I read on adventurerider, bmw sport touring sites. I think the verdict is still out for the buell Ul. A problem to keep in mind is dealer availibility and cost of maintenanace. This is where I believe BMW is back sliding.

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but buell is also sliding far and fast in this area I only know of one buell dealer in the area right now and there used to be about 4 or 5, 3 of the ones I called dropped buell as for BMW I know of about 3, but really the only find'em everywhere is suzuki, honda, and HD.

[Guest davidb]

I agree. If the honda rc51 had higher bars and most important... a 5.5 gallon gas tank, I would own one right now.. I rode my porker today ( bmw r1100rt-police) 5 weeks after back surgery and it will just have to do until something special comes out from the manufacturers.

[dangerous]

I think Buell still hasn't got the EFI figured out on these things.

 

It stalled at almost every stop light,

when I turned the throttle to engage the clutch, it would spit, try to catch, I'd pull the clutch in, blip it to save it, it would spit back again, and die. This would be followed by a mad stab at the starter with throttle 3/4 and clutch out at 4000rpm. Pissed me right off.

 

The handling was very odd for me, almost unstable, but I find the all Buells feel inherently unstable, almost as if ready for an instant tank slapper.

 

Again, using my series 1 V11 as an example, with it's known lack of stability compared to the post '02 models, I still feel the V11 has an advantage, as I've ridden with buddies on their Firebolts up to Whistler, and they generally held me up everywhere.

 

After heading out it's apparent this thing has a VERY stiff shifter. The thing rattles and shakes, and I'm sure there will soon be lots of bits falling off.

 

Power, well, it does loft the front in first, but it's all over very fast, disapointing really.

It feels plasticy, rattly, loosey goosey. Piece of crap really. Back firing, stalling, surging. Do they actually have engineers at HD?

 

Steve....... Steve mate, My missus has a Firebolt with factory race kit... and it is nothing like you talk about.

 

The XB12r would be the smothest bike I have ever ridden, nothing has come loose on it and it would cream my V11 before I had it started, the Buell is bloody fast, it wheelies well in 2nd and most importantly it handles like a dream... I have ridden it on the track and in the hills and it is magic.

However it does have a differant feel to it as you are so close to the frount wheel, it feels like it drifts a bit.

 

The Buell stars 1st time and idles sweet, it has never staled. I rate her bike to the max (turnig circle is shittie as tho) it just makes me grin ear to ear..... so I really think that you had a lemon in this case.

 

[g.forrest]

i'll help you out here. cagiva raptor..find a test ride.

I'll have to wait until test rides are in order because I'm down to 1200GS who some think is shite and Ulysses who some think is Shite, I don't think there is a bike out there someone Doesn't think is shite. BUT I listen to the views on this board more than most mag's you've all been there done that kind of approach I don't have. 

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