Guzzirider Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 Mr Ginger Baker from Deutschland has been advertising 3 different sets of V11 forks for weeks now: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gabel-Marzocchi-Moto...1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gabel-Marzocchi-Moto...1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gabel-Ohlins-Moto-Gu...1QQcmdZViewItem May be worth considering before looking at a fork conversion from another source. Those Ohlins look relatively cheap if he has no reserve. Guy
not_scooter_Scura! Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 I know I'll probably piss off some purists on here but, I don't care I want to get back on the road not wait for months to get the right MG parts at four times the cost of a simple conversion. 79699[/snapback] don't worry about the purists, getting your Guzzi flying again is the 'pure' thing to do. All the best.
not_scooter_Scura! Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 Thanks for the reply, my friend. So the price of the bike made the Marz forks CHEAP. Well, I'd say that VALUE plays in the mix here also. But that's just me. IMHO, Guzzi went with a long-standing Italian (d'ya s'pose there were ever any powerful "inside" connections there?! ) supplier of some considerable merit with Marzocchi up until the point where they turned a corner and decided that a clearly superior "outside" supplier beat 'em out hands-down. According to some they might've been late making the change. IMHO, having comp and rebound on separate legs is a different setup alright, but I don't know of anyone who's ever cited a single valid case of improper fork action or sub-grade performance due to the design - except, of course, the accounts of competitors. <_ the myth is simply a complete fallacy. it different so always drawn ground fire. sure i prefer ohlins but don race and merely road geez. given proper spring rates preloads sag setups on each more likely not talented enough to be able tell much of any diff. at all src="%7B___base_url___%7D/uploads/emoticons/default_sleep.png" alt="-_-"> 79723[/snapback] I can testify that having COMP + REB on different forks on my KTM Duke does nothing to degrade the handling, off course this bike is light... I also agree there there is a lot that can be done to improve the Marz..., I mean having M1R forks on my 907 was a revelation! maybe , it's the sheer choice & ease of getting something 'better'. This sums it up for me: I would rather buy the Ducati Sport1000 over the PaulSmartLE on suspension alone, the "cheaper" Sport's suspension simply worked better on the road... with the riding I did (on the road). I just realised I crapped on verbatim....but sometimes I do these things... in the name of bling get whatever you like... in the name of science see how well you can sort out the standard suspension.
g.forrest Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 POINT well made.. I upgraded from the Marzocchis to the Ohlins, and I just LOVE the difference.I don't care about shedding time off of laps, as I don't race. I have greater than 1/2 inch chicken strips, and I cannot honestly say the strips got any smaller by switching to Ohlins. What I have noticed is that they are far more comfortable, they don't bottom out, and they feel more stable at high speed, probably to the value of five clicks on the steering damper. Also, since switching to Ohlins, I am on my first front tire that does not seem to be wearing excessively on the left side....the saving on tires could pay for the Ohlins in fifty years! 79731[/snapback]
Guest ratchethack Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 Guess it depends what you're doing but I've had more handling problems on uneven, unpredictable roads than ever on track. You can get away with much more on a racetrack. Point well taken, Keith. I've never actually been on a racetrack with my Guzzi, but from what I understand, surfaces tend to be much more even and "clean" than the kinds of loose stuff, holes, sand, marbles, off-camber, blind curves, water, etc. that I tend to encounter in the mountains. The difference I was alluding to WRT the fork is the manner in which bikes are ridden on the road vs. track. Though I've seen a few "racer-types" attempting something that looks to me like IOM speeds on public roads, these kinds of riders actually tend to be few and far between in this neck o' the woods, and of the more....uh, temporary and self-limiting nature... For me, the kind of fork and setup I'd ideally use on the road would have entirely different objectives, and therefore use entirely different spring rates, sags, valving, comp & rebound settings, etc. - not to mention tires - regardless of what kind of fork, while the track setup would likely tend to be very tightly confined within smaller, more limited parameters, for a smaller, more limited, but also more specifically demanding kind of performance. But that's merely the impression of a Road Geez. A respring etc may do the job. Depends how you ride it. 'Zackly.
helicopterjim R.I.P. Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 One important thing to be aware of when putting an alternate front end on a V11 is the length of the forks. The V11 forks are a little bit longer than most forks so putting a Suzuki or Ducati front end on would lower the front end and change the rake, trail and ground clearance. The newer Ducati forks will mean you will need different calipers as well and the diameter of the fork tubes is smaller requiring triple clamp mods or replacements. These White Power Forks would also be a fine choice but perhaps the Ohlins would be the best value at the price. Goodluck however you go with your repairs. Cheers Jim
Guest vratbastard Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 Point well taken, Keith. I've never actually been on a racetrack with my Guzzi, but from what I understand, surfaces are much more even and "clean" than the kinds of loose stuff, holes, sand, marbles, off-camber, blind curves, water, etc. that I tend to encounter in the mountains. The difference I was alluding to WRT the fork is the manner in which bikes are ridden on the road vs. track. Though I've seen a few "racer-types" attempting something that looks to me like IOM speeds on public roads, these kinds of riders actually tend to be few and far between in this neck o' the woods, and of the more uh, temporary and self-limiting nature... For me, the kind of fork and setup I'd ideally use on the road would have entirely different objectives, and therefore use entirely different spring rates, sags, valving, comp & rebound settings, etc. - regardless of what kind of fork, while the track setup would likely tend to be very tightly confined within smaller, more limited parameters, for a smaller, more limited, but also more specifically demanding kind of performance. But that's just my impression. 'Zackly. 79772[/snapback] The stock marz forks that I have are junk, literally. They are bent/tweaked beyond repair. As is most of the other components. I Think the only thing savalageable is the wheel and the brakes. So I don't have much of a choice, it's either pay ridiulous money for STOCK MG parts and wait forever for them or convert the front end to something more common (modern). Some how this thing got turned around like I'm getting rid of the suspension because I WANT to, it's more of a NEED than a want at this point. But, I have to say that If I was given the option I would not choose marz forks. Just my personal opinion. That's just my american hot rodder attitude, everything can be made to work better than stock.
helicopterjim R.I.P. Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 The price is a bit high but the forks listed earlier on ebay (the better Marzocchi's and the White Power forks) may be your easiest way out as they are a complete front end with yokes and everything and they are brand new units. These will bolt right on and you won't have to worry about the geometry of you bike changing. I like the WP forks on my Centauro and others I know feel the same.
Guest ratchethack Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 I upgraded from the Marzocchis to the Ohlins, and I just LOVE the difference.I don't care about shedding time off of laps, as I don't race. I have greater than 1/2 inch chicken strips, and I cannot honestly say the strips got any smaller by switching to Ohlins. What I have noticed is that they are far more comfortable, they don't bottom out, and they feel more stable at high speed, probably to the value of five clicks on the steering damper. Also, since switching to Ohlins, I am on my first front tire that does not seem to be wearing excessively on the left side....the saving on tires could pay for the Ohlins in fifty years! 79731[/snapback] Dave, the difference would no doubt be lovable for me, too. But of course, you're comparing the Ohlins to the Marz fork with stock springs - the ones that I figure are properly rated for a 125-150 lb. rider. And you come in at what, 220, give or take? I'm not too surprised that you'd bottom-out with such a huge disparity in match of rate to load. Point being, from my understanding, the Ohlins came with springs properly rated for something closer to your weight? Apples-to-apples, my friend. Now you've got 50 lbs on me, and I figure I was riding around on one-third of available fork travel with the stock springs in the Marz forks. By my reckoning, I weigh about 20 lbs. over the max. rating of the stock fork springs that came with the Marz forks, and I could tell it was pretty bad. Being at least 70 lbs. over, you must've been riding around on about one-tenth of available travel? When I got properly-matched springs in my Marz fork and set the preload and sags correctly, it was likewise a brand-new world - I'm using 110-115 mm of the availabe 120 mm fork travel now, and absolutely LOVE the difference, too!
richard100t Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 Richard, the Guys at GuzziTech have put Showa forks on Tonti-framed Guzzis, and they've probably done lots more of this kind of thing than I know about. You might browse around over there. Yep, the water gets deep pretty quickly when you start juggling fork and chassis geometries... I'm interested in the reason you consider the stock forks "pretty cheap". Have you properly matched-up a set of springs according to your weight and riding style? How about properly setting laden and unladen sag? 79704[/snapback] I'm with Vrat on this one. For the price these bikes cost the forks (a major part of the suspension lol) should have been at least as good as the brakes. As the customer of a bike that costs upwards of 12 large, I shouldnt have to go through that much trouble to get my bike to feel right. If you need to buy a set of new springs & have your bike "properly set up" at extra expense then the oem equipment is not up to the quality level you should rightly expect to get at that price point. That being said I do like my v11, the forks arent horrible but they arent what they should be. Maybe calling them cheap wasnt the most polite way to put it but hey its just my
Guest ratchethack Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 I'm with Vrat on this one. For the price these bikes cost the forks (a major part of the suspension lol) should have been at least as good as the brakes. As the customer of a bike that costs upwards of 12 large, I shouldnt have to go through that much trouble to get my bike to feel right. If you need to buy a set of new springs & have your bike "properly set up" at extra expense then the oem equipment is not up to the quality level you should rightly expect to get at that price point. That being said I do like my v11, the forks arent horrible but they arent what they should be. Maybe calling them cheap wasnt the most polite way to put it but hey its just my 79832[/snapback] Richard, there are those, (and I'm one) who consider chassis setup a critically-important - mandatory even - first step when acquiring any new "sporting" motorcycle (or any kind, actually). Now if y'er ridin' a luxo-barge or cruiser, it's possibly a little less important, but when handling is a primary objective, certainly proper suspension setup is a hard requirement. It's the same with any motorcycle at any price. I wasn't overly pleased about having to get new fork springs, and ideally this shouldn't happen. But such is life. If y'er a big guy, it's just a fact that y'er gonna have more of a problem with proper suspension performance unless you address it with proper setup, including new springs, if necessary. But simply not having a proper match of spring rate to load doesn't make the suspension a bad suspension! New springs are a relatively easy and relatively inexpensive thing, compared to all-new forks, a re-valve, or rear shock! IMHO, getting the spring rates correct is well worth a few hundred bucks to get it spot-on. In fact I consider this high value - CHEAP even! The improvement can be night & day. (It was in my case!) Spring rates and laden and unladen sag settings are the basics, my friend. You follow proper setup here with compression & rebound damping settings. If y'er ignoring all of this, I'm afraid y'er substantially missing the great handling that's engineered into your machine - yet hidden behind bad road manners! I reckon Guzzi made a mistake by allowing their bikes to go to market so severely undersprung. It caused a lot of problems for them, and resulted in a lot of confusion among new, inexperienced owners, and gave Guzzi a bad rap in many cases - not totally undeserved, IMHO. But consider the difficulty for a manufacturer to spec out a suspension that works properly for rider weights that can spread 100 or even 200 pounds. Well, it can't be done exactly right for everybody, or even half-way decently for everybody! That's one of the primary reasons that suspensions are so adjustable these days. It's gettin' easier and easier IMHO to get 'em dialed in properly off the dealer floor, but if y'er weight isn't a match to the springs - y'er gonna hafta have new springs or suffer bad handling. No way around it - no matter what you spent on y'er scooter.
richard100t Posted February 24, 2006 Posted February 24, 2006 I have spent some time setting up the suspension on my bike. I have tried several settings from soft to maximum dial up for compression & rebound up front. I probably weigh in the 190lb range with all the leather & helmet so the weight shouldnt be a factor with me. Dont get me wrong the forks arent terrible, as I've said...they just arent as good as they should be. It could be thats the way they designed the bike to ride but it just doesnt handle bumpy pavement well at all. If the roads are smooth & in good condition the ride is ok. Just try to find a good smooth road in Ohio in the springtime lol. Where you live there may not be too many potholes but thats just a part of life in the more northern climates. Its nothing I'd spend over a thousand dollars to fix & I'm not going to sell the bike because of it. I'm not the only guy here that feels this way about the forks so its not just me. Other than that the rest of the bike is well made (cough except the paint cough). Ooops thats a whole 'nother thread
Guest ratchethack Posted February 24, 2006 Posted February 24, 2006 Richard - have you properly set the laden and unladen sag? Unless you've done this, y'er wasting your time with compression & rebound settings. Richard, I'd like to help, but I don't want to seem presumptuous here. It took me many years just to start to get good and confused about suspension setup. Then came cartridge forks. Don't get me started... Getting my current 2 bikes properly set-up, I learned a whole bunch more. I've re-sprung and set-up many of my own bikes, but on the 2 I've got now, I've re-sprung both forks, and I ain't done yet... Here's a suspension site that can help get you started (see link below). If it's too confusing (don't feel bad! This stuff ain't easy!) I'd suggest take y'er Guzzi to a competent dealer or suspension shop. The "hidden Guzzi" behind y'er poor, neglected suspension is crying to get out!! http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html
Guest vratbastard Posted February 24, 2006 Posted February 24, 2006 Richard - have you properly set the laden and unladen sag? Unless you've done this, y'er wasting your time with compression & rebound settings. Richard, I'd like to help, but I don't want to seem presumptuous here. It took me many years just to start to get good and confused about suspension setup. Then came cartridge forks. Don't get me started... Getting my current 2 bikes properly set-up, I learned a whole bunch more. I've re-sprung and set-up many of my own bikes, but on the 2 I've got now, I've re-sprung both forks, and I ain't done yet... Here's a suspension site that can help get you started (see link below). If it's too confusing (don't feel bad! This stuff ain't easy!) I'd suggest take y'er Guzzi to a competent dealer or suspension shop. The "hidden Guzzi" behind y'er poor, neglected suspension is crying to get out!! http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html 79839[/snapback] No offense ratchethack but, your beating the whole suspension "set up" thing to death. If I hear "springs" or "set up" again I'm going to LOL!
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