Front end conversion

[Guest ratchethack]

Hey, no prob, Vrat. Motorcycles that perform as designed aren't for everyone.

 

Did you notice that this particular forum is "Technical Topics"?

 

This is the kinda stuff that we tend to talk about here.

 

When it comes to suspension, you ain't seen nothin' yet, my friend...

[Guest vratbastard]

Hey, no prob, Vrat.  Motorcycles that perform as designed aren't for everyone.

 

Did you notice that this particular forum is "Technical Topics"?

 

This is the kinda stuff that we tend to talk about here.

 

When it comes to suspension, you ain't seen nothin' yet...

79849[/snapback]

 

Ouch...Believe you me, I may be new to guzzi. But, I'm not to motorcycle suspensions and suspensions in general. You may think I'm too young to know much (25) but, I've worked for www.3rracing.com. Wrenching on SCCA pro racing GT CUP; compeition Porsche 996 GT3 cup cars (full ohlins) and Corvette Z06 race cars. Not only that but, as a sportbike rider I've competed in several WERA and MRA road racing events in and around colorado (cbr f2, TLRs ,full ohlins). I'm no slouch when it comes to wrenching on bike (and in general) so sorry if I tend to scoff at what I see as lousy suspension! I have very high expectations, and as a industrial designer I hate to see machinery that can't reach it's full potential due to poor choices made by the manufacturer. Why you would want to even bother with those forks is beyond me. But hey to each their own, I'll do with my bike as I please and vice versa. This has been an interesting thread nonetheless! LOL!

 

cheers!

[Guest ratchethack]

Brilliant! Now I wouldn't mess with a set of "lunched" forks either.

 

But maybe then you wouldn't mind giving some kind of an explanation in terms y'er most familiar with about what exactly you found deficient with the intact Marz forks - other than a spring rate not properly matched to load?

 

Surely, you've got sumpin' better than, "they're crap!"

 

We have a fairly large number of Marz fork guys here, myself included, who'd be most interested!

 

In light of your extensive motor racing resume, how the terms "set-up" and "springs" have evidently become your "kryptonite" would also seem to be a bit of a mystery?

 

Enquiring minds just gotta know!

[Guest vratbastard]

Brilliant!  Now I wouldn't mess with a set of "lunched" forks either.

 

But maybe then you wouldn't mind giving some kind of an explanation in terms y'er familiar with about what exactly you found deficient with the intact Marz forks - other than a spring rate not properly matched to load?

 

Surely, you've got sumpin' better than, "they're crap!"

 

In light of your prestigious motoring resume, how the terms "set-up" and "springs" have evidently become your "kryptonite" would seem to be a bit of a mystery?  

 

Enquiring minds just gotta know!

79860[/snapback]

 

You just wont let up about your beloved forks will you? Lol!

 

Ok here we go:

 

The key to excellent suspension is damping curves and spring rates (among other things). Yes, most stock fork pistons move enough fluid volume to be suitable for both street and race applications but, the stock valving or lack there of leaves much to be desired. You can do all the fiddling with spring rates and compression/rebound adjustment and you still wont come close to modern competition from ohlins or even newer stock showa forks. One of these days I'll take an ohlins (or even a new showa) and one of your marzocchis to 3r racing and put it up on the shock dyno. So we can do a hard copy shock dyno comparo, non of this here say. Though due to the seperate comp/rebound it would be hard to afix in the dyno! There is a considerable difference in dampening ability. No matter the "set up" to the stock fork.

 

I've come across a similar problem with the rear rotary shock on the TL1000Rs. It's an unusual design, and unfortunately rides like a truck (no matter what the preload or comp/rebound adj). I've taken lots of time to try and "set up" that stock shock by drilling out the hyd. fluid restriction holes in effort to get it to ride better(softer, more fluid flow). All in all it was a total waste of time and I ended up just buying an ohlins rear shock for it. Night and day difference.

[Guest ratchethack]

Hell, no I won't let up. You've made some pretty derogatory claims and I wanna see what you got to back it up.

 

Sorry, man. Thanks for the effort, such as it is, but I still ain't seen anything here. You've made a bunch of statements about measuring fork performance on a shock dyno, but you haven't measured the Marz. The most specific thing I see here is "a considerable difference in dampening [sic] ability", "leaves much to be desired" and "Night and day difference". Compared to what?! This is so non-specific and without any frame of reference, it's useless. I have no clue from this if you ever rode one of these forks properly set-up with properly matched springs. Sorry, but IMHO this would be a typical invalid mistake in making any kind of a judgment on these forks.

 

I don't think you've got a valid complaint on these forks, but that's just me.

 

None of what you've said would seem to apply specifically to guys riding on the road. That's where most of us ride.

[Guest vratbastard]

Hell, no I won't let up.  You've made some pretty derogatory claims and I wanna see what you got to back it up. 

 

Sorry, man.  Thanks for the effort, but I still ain't seen anything.  You've made a bunch of statements about measuring fork performance on a shock dyno, but you haven't measured the Marz.  The most specific thing I see here is "a considerable difference in dampening [sic] ability" and "Night and day difference".  This is so non-specific and without any frame of reference, it's useless.  I have no clue from this if you ever rode one of these forks properly set-up with proper springs.  Sorry, but IMHO this would be a typical mistake in evaluating these forks.

 

I'm lookin' for stuff like, "correctly set-up, I found that it skips and judders in stutter bumps and makes me ride wide in high-speed sweepers at 80 mph, where the Ohlins, in identical conditions, with the same tires, tracks like it's on rails."  Sorry, man.  None of what you've said would seem to apply specifically to guys riding on the road.   That's where most of us ride.

79871[/snapback]

 

First off I don't care what you WANT to hear, we won't see eye to eye. This is apparent. I've got experience with a competitve race car team and racing bikes, do you?

 

Do you know what a suspension dyno is? Computrak, obviously not? You put in the track (street course) of your choice and it puts the suspension though it's paces. Saves hundreds of hours in R&D. It's the ONLY way to accurately measure suspension. You can ride all day long and still not have an accurate comprehension of suspension dynamics. I don't care if you race or ride daily. "Judders" or "skips" is NOT an accurate way of measure, lol!

 

I could write a 10 page essay on why the marzocchis are inferior forks but, I've got better things to do. LIKE RIDING, AND WRENCHIN! Not fighting with forum members over personal opinions. Good night sir, find another forum member to shoot down. It ain't going to be me.

[Steve G.]

Damn, I love it!!! Another lad knocking his head against the proverbial wall.

Ciao, Steve G.

[Guest vratbastard]

   

  Damn, I love it!!! Another lad knocking his head against the proverbial wall.

                                                                        Ciao, Steve G.

79873[/snapback]

 

 

LOL! "proverbial wall" I'm thinking the great wall only say made out of SOLID lead, haha.

 

It's all in good fun though, I've got nothing against ratchethack. I knew very well that my post would bring him out to defend his beloved forks. To each their own.

[dlaing]

Point being, from my understanding, the Ohlins came with springs properly rated for something closer to your weight?  Apples-to-apples, my friend.

79785[/snapback]

You are correct, I never gave proper springs a chance on the Marz, and went straight to what I know is the better solution.

Here is a more proper comparison.

Marzocchi

Pros

Made in Italy

Elegant aluminum finish

Light weight

Free if you already paid for them...

Anything you do to modify them will make them better.

Cons

Allegedly rated by the fine staff at Traxxion as having about the worse dampers that they have seen.

Expensive to upgrade damper with proper balance of high and low speed damping.

Rebound on one side and compression on the other(debateably a con, I suspect that it creates tire and frame oscillation, but also has advantages for example tuning with different oil weights in each tube)

Slim axle.

Difficult to upgrade to radial mounted brakes.

No gold nitride coating

Ohlins

Pros

Made in Sweden (Love them Swedish Ladie Athletes )

Top Quality, arguably, nothing compares, although some of the Showa are pretty good, too.

Sprung out of the box for most riders.

Suspension shops are very familiar with them, so they are easy to get someone to set them up "right"

Documentation is superior to what is available for the Marzocchi.

Balance of high and low speed damping is excellent.

Large selection of very high quality springs available from Ohlins as well as other parts.

Available radial mounted brake mount

External Preload.

Fat hollow axle.

Gold Nitride coated tubes.

Rossi Rides on Ohlins.

Cons

Price

and weight is a little heavier than the Marzocchi.

Bright anodized Gold Bling finish (I prefer the look of the the Marz with my silver bike)

 

PS Marz needs women

[callison]

I bought a used set of WP's from a Sport 1100i when I put FrankenSport back together. They're probably somewhere between stock and Ohlins as suspension components. They are an (almost) a direct bolt in replacement. The almost comes from the slightly different fender mount holes. You can get the stock V11 Sport fender to attach, but it's a stretch.

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

I bought a used set of WP's from a Sport 1100i when I put FrankenSport back together. They're probably somewhere between stock and Ohlins as suspension components.  They are an (almost) a direct bolt in replacement. The almost comes from the slightly different fender mount holes. You can get the stock V11 Sport fender to attach, but it's a stretch.

79893[/snapback]

 

 

Thankyou. I mentioned something similar earlier but they all seem to want to argue about what this fellow does not want.

[Guest ratchethack]

I've got experience with a competitve race car team and racing bikes, do you?

Look Vrat, your racing experience may help you somewhere, but it doesn't seem to be doin' you too much good here. By your posts, your experience seems to be entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Lets try to be rational, shall we?

Do you know what a suspension dyno is?

Yeah, I know what a suspension dyno is. According to what you said in your previous post, you hadn't put a Marz fork on one! Your mention of doing it at some point in the future would seem to have no value to this discussion whatsoever! Why'd you even bring it up?!?!

I could write a 10 page essay on why the marzocchis...

No thanks. A simple, concise, explanation of any problem or deficiency would suffice. I haven't seen any.

 

Look Vrat, you came in with unsupported generalizations against forks that a large number of Forum members are currently using, myself included. There's enough misinformation and ignorance about suspension out there without somebody throwing gas on the fire. I wasn't gonna let you get away with it for good reason.

 

Many Forum members are new to motorcycles and haven't got the faintest idea about suspension set-up, nor do many even consider why it might be important, or that it COULD be important to them! One poster on this thread seems to think that if you spend enough money on a motorcycle, you shouldn't have to pay any attention to setting up the suspension!

 

When irresponsible claims get flung about, those without experience or understanding get confused and can make bad decisions. Some of these decisions affect the operation of their motorcycles on the road. I've seen lots of really scary things done to motorcycles by obviously inexperienced riders that I consider bad enough to be life-threatening. Being ignorant about the motorcycle y'er riding can have dire consequences - and that's true whether y'er "blissfully" ignorant or othewise. As I suspect you might be at least somewhat aware, the wrong moves with suspension setup (as well as without!) can be seriously dangerous.

 

If you've payed any attention to what I've said, I haven't said anything like Marz forks are better than Ohlins, or any other fork. In fact, I've made quite the opposite statement, indicating that I'd probably prefer them, as I believe Ohlins to be a superior product.

 

Lemme get right to the core of the thing. If you haven't evaluated the Marz fork properly SET-UP, with spring rates properly matched to the load, you have no business making ANY kind of a judgment about their performance. From your posts, I see no indication that you've done that. Again, this is typical, but it ain't fair, and it completely ignores the inherent merits of the fork, which are substantial, IMHO.

 

Unfortunately, many riders pay no attention whatsoever to setting up their chassis correctly. They either can't (or won't) read technically-oriented instructions, don't know how important it is, or, being just totally irresponsible, they couldn't care less. Others who're more responsible to their own enjoyment of riding (and safety) will be keenly interested in gaining the knowledge that every motorcycle requires of it's owner to perform as designed. Those who're really sharp will be interested in gaining enough knowledge to improve 'em beyond that.

 

How guys can spend hours and hours evaluating tires, then put their choice on a chassis that's so out of tune that it wallows like a pig is beyond me. Yet the woods 'r full of 'em...

 

Being a hands-on guy doing 100% of the work on every bike I've owned, I've taken the time to learn proper chassis set-up, and I've made the effort to set my Marz up properly. Many others that I'm aware of here have done the same. IMHO, there are WAY too few in this camp - but that's just me. I'm very pleased with my Marz and others seem to be also. There's no need here or anywhere else to sow any seeds of doubt on the Marz fork! With proper springs, it's a very good road fork, IMHO.

 

Here's a hypothetical. Take a Guzzi with a set of Ohlins and put a pair of springs rated for a 125-150 lb. rider in 'em. (As previously noted, this is my estimation of the stock spring rating on the springs that came with the Marz ~.6 kg/mm.) Ignore the sag settings and preload spacers the way any garden-variety ignorant and/or inexperienced rider would, and while y'er at it, ignore the sags and preload on the stock undersprung rear too. Then have a 220 lb rider take 'er out for a good flog on a mountain road with assorted sweepers, switchbacks, decreasing-radius curves, and sheer drop-offs. How d'you s'pose the Ohlins'd perform? Best give our rider a cell phone with a 9-1-1 speed-dial, too.

 

I've paid attention to correct chassis setup on every one of the dozen bikes I've owned, to varying degrees. After a dozen bikes over 40 years, you tend to get more capable at getting things right as suspension components get better, more sophisticated, and more adjustable. We've had people complain about their forks and replace 'em before making any attempt at getting them dialed-in with proper springs. There seems to be a fair amount of that here. They'll justify this by saying what a great improvement they achieved! To me, it's certainly a valid option for anybody, but it doesn't do much justice to the merit of the original forks.

 

Look. I subscribe to the concept that there's no "perfect" fork (or any other suspension component) out there. The best we can do is make the best of what we have to work with. If you ain't setting things up properly, you ain't got a single chance in hell of knowing what they're capable of. If necessary, we can always upgrade to a newer, better design as may be appropriate. The way things have gone with suspension development over the last 40 years, it'd be reasonable to expect that the current "benchmark" fork (Ohlins) will be bested by a superior product. This might even be another product from Ohlins. Will that then make today's Ohlins "crap"? Will it make today's Ohlins unusable for the average rider - or even far above average rider - ten years from now? I think not. By the same token, it's unfair, IMHO, to make blanket statements that Marz forks are somehow bad forks!

 

If y'er not making the best of what you have to work with, well - ye'r missing the boat. Guzzi's are fundamentally compromised from a handling standpoint from the get-go. They're far from the best handling machines available on the road OR track. But they ain't too bad on the road, anyway! For the purposes that most of us use 'em, they're more than adequate IMHO. Relative to modern Sport bikes, the Guzzi spine-frame chassis is so compromised by it's unsprung, massive "boat anchor" bevel-drive hub, porky rearward weight bias, short swing-arm, and lack of torsional ridgidity, that I question the wisdom of putting a fork on it that's possibly a quantum leap ahead of the chassis' ability to realize any benefit at all from it! The Marz fork might be considered equally inferior to the chassis!!! But being a Road Geez - who cares? As seems to be the case with many, "very good" handling on the road is plenty good enough - myself included, BAA, TJM, & YMMV.

 

Now these pages have contained a detailed but equally irrelevant thrashing of the Marz fork valving by a salesman from a company that offers expensive replacement emulators. Is anyone surprised to discover that the salesman of a competitive product has a lot of bad things to say about the product he gets paid to replace??!! Their "turn-key" package for the Marz includes - ready for this? SPRINGS rated for the weight of the rider! What a concept, eh?!!

 

There seem to be a number of posters who not only don't pay any attention to chassis setup, but they seem to RESENT any mention of it's importance. On a Technical motorcycle Forum, it's a question of when, not if. I can't understand this mentality. Reminds me of a guy I knew who hadn't paid his taxes in years. Whenever he heard "IRS" it made him jump....

 

Let's not make unnecessary, unfounded claims, shall we?

[Guzzirider]

There is only one way that two gentlemen may settle a dispute of this nature.

 

[dlaing]

In the same way, it's unfair, IMHO, to make blanket statements that Marz forks are somehow bad forks!

79912[/snapback]

These Marzocchi look nice and have a good reputation from the people that sell them

I might take them over the Ohlins just because they are 50mm and Italian and RED and seem to claim superior damping

I got upset when Gthynni said the Bitubo steering damper was crap.

Heck I appreciated the piece of crap friction damper on my V65 (RIP) but the Bitubo is hydraulic, so I was ready to defend it.

But I must agree that compared to HyperPro and Ohlins, it is crap.

The Marzocchi on our bike have inferior damping.

How can I make this claim?

From predicting how my bike would be with better springs and comparing it, and having read the efforts that Mike Stewart went through to get his set up right. Of course he is the one who sold me the Ohlins, so maybe I got set up Just kidding Mike, I love getting forked over by you.

Basically the Marzocchi forks have too much high speed damping.

If you can fix that, you have done pretty good.

Aside from revalving I think the best one can do is use 5W oil on the Compression side and dial out damping to the minimum. WARNING you should only do this if you have properly firm spring weights as a lack of damping can cause instability, and by reducing the damping by going to 5w high and low speed damping are both reduced...not ideal, but with firm springs, it will probably work very well.

On a side note, I wonder if using progressive springs like Ratchet's Wilbers is bad for the forks.

When the compressed progressive spring makes contact with itself, does it wear metal into the fork housing and oil?

Do the metal particles mung up the damping and seals and precipitate wear?

[Mike Stewart]

Ok, back to the original question <_>

 

The main problem you are going to have with a fork replacement is finding the correct fork length. The 2000 and 2001 forks are long (can't remember the length off hand) and the 02 and newer forks are at least 1.5" longer to compensate for the above the tripleclamp clip-ons.

 

The good news is with the stock tripleclamp setup 54mm., you can shim the clamps to take just about any dimeter fork out there.

 

Since your lower tripleclamp is tweaked, I think it would still be easier to find a used one rather than finding another brand. Reason for this is the way the steering stops are and triple clamp off set. The length of the Guzzi steerer is quite long also.

 

I have played with the stock 2000 fork quite abit (Ok alot) and have wasted much money trying to improve their feel with out any luck. I then tried a set of Aprilia Showa forks and machined shims to fit the triple clamps. While the damping and spring rate were correct, the forks were just a tad too short for the already nervous handling bike so I scrapped the idea and went with the Ohlins fork setup. I wish I would of gone this way first and saved hundreds of dollars wasted on the Marzochhi.

 

Now David has the Ohlins forks on his bike and I can still see his grin on his face as he rides. I feel the Ohlins are just way more compliant over any type of road surface and this make a fun bike even funner to ride .

 

Mike