1100 Breva rear drive defect

[pete roper]

 

............... or the fact that BMW's eat gearbox bearings like a pederast hands out boiled lollies.

Pete, I don't get out much. What exactly is a "pederast", and what are "boiled lollies"?

 

Thanks in advance,

Phil

The home for the terminally bored

Atlanta GA

'02 Le Mans

80708[/snapback]

 

Oh dear, we seem to have got on to a pervert thread. A pederast is somebody who inteferes with small children, the common image of such people is of the shabby raincoated brigade offering what you would call 'Candies' to kiddies in parks or public conveniences.

 

Pete

[todd haven]

Is it a bad bearing, or badly mounted, with tennsion between inner and outer rings?

80711[/snapback]

 

Attached is the pic of the bearing removed from our demo.

Significant radial play in the bearing.

Anyone recognize that brand?

Replacement SKF (sourced locally, and same as the BMW oilheads,) had no radial play.

Much better product, even if made in France

[Paul Minnaert]

Todd, any comment from guzzi on this? which VINs are affected?

[mike wilson]

Attached is the pic of the bearing removed from our demo.

Significant radial play in the bearing.

Anyone recognize that brand?

Replacement SKF (sourced locally, and same as the BMW oilheads,) had no radial play.

Much better product, even if made in France

80725[/snapback]

 

It's a Polish company. The middle letter is like an L with a line through it, pronounced "w" as in work. Now owned by Hoover, in turn owned by Tsubaki.

 

http://www.ebearing.com/news2003/022801.htm

 

It's a vacuum cleaner bearing. 8-))))))

[Guest Jeff in Ohio]

It's a Polish company.  The middle letter is like an L with a line through it, pronounced "w"  as in work.  Now owned by Hoover, in turn owned by Tsubaki.

 

http://www.ebearing.com/news2003/022801.htm

 

It's a vacuum cleaner bearing.  8-))))))

80731[/snapback]

 

 

No, actually they only purchased the outfit that makes the 'bearing balls' not the complete bearing. Going into 2004, FLT was still state run. Might have been privatized according to this report...

 

http://www.ebearing.com/news2004/111601.htm

 

 

The boys around here have never heard of them.

 

they do have a website though

 

http://www.flt.krasnik.pl/pl/

[Guest Duffo]

As a new member to this forum, with a July 05 Breva, my concern is not that the bearing might fail, but that I have to go round tight bends with something that resembles a BSA A10 with about 3 inches of slack in the chain. You can get used to it and Corsa Italiana reckon it is to do with shimming of the bevel gears but, it is not something you should have to put up with on a new bike.

Cheers, Gerry.

[pete roper]

As a new member to this forum, with a July 05 Breva, my concern is not that the bearing might fail, but that I have to go round tight bends with something that resembles a BSA A10 with about 3 inches of slack in the chain. You can get used to it and Corsa Italiana reckon it is to do with shimming of the bevel gears but, it is not something you should have to put up with on a new bike.

Cheers, Gerry.

80786[/snapback]

 

Can you expand on that? The Breva I rode had next to no driveline snatch and certainly no play in the bevelbox? The clearance between the crownwheel and pinion is measured in thou, there is no backlash. Any backlash will be within the selector dog mechanism in the gearbox so with all due respect I can't understand what they're talking about at Corsa?????

 

To me it sounds more like a surging problem caused by poor FI setup. You haven't got some queer aftermarket pipe on it have you????

 

Pete

[Guest Duffo]

Can you expand on that? The Breva I rode had next to no driveline snatch and certainly no play in the bevelbox? The clearance between the crownwheel and pinion is measured in thou, there is no backlash. Any backlash will be within the selector dog mechanism in the gearbox so with all due respect I can't understand what they're talking about at Corsa?????

 

To me it sounds more like a surging problem caused by poor FI setup. You haven't got some queer aftermarket pipe on it have you????

 

Pete

80787[/snapback]

Hi Pete, no I do not have any surging or queer pipes, what I have is an excess of play in the crownwheel pinion set up, Paul's bike has it but in lesser quantitys and the later ones out of the factory seem to have removed it completely. If you would like to come down to a Solent branch meet and try mine round some mini roundabouts you are welcome. Having ridden bikes for 40 years and Guzzis for 25, I can tell a selector dog from a queer pipe.

Cheers, Gerry.

[Guest mphcycles]

Is it a bad bearing, or badly mounted, with tennsion between inner and outer rings?

80711[/snapback]

 

Its appears to be just a crap bearing. the radial play is on the order of 10 thous, it literally wiggles under finger pressure.

But its took less than an hour to replace the first time I have ever had a CARC unit off or opened. We have not received any instructions on how to do it so I just muddled through it. Its a beautifully simple piece to service, solid as rock in design. Spoiled only by accts payable.

A new bearing and a new seal just because I had one here, and its a viton directional as Pete would prefer, and its DTRMF.

I expect we will fix a few of these , then its over. No big deal.

[DeBenGuzzi]

Its appears to be just  a crap bearing. the radial play is on the order of 10 thous, it literally wiggles under finger pressure.

But its took less than an hour to replace the first time I have ever had a CARC  unit off or opened. We have not received any instructions on how to do it so I just muddled through it. Its a beautifully simple piece to service, solid as rock in design. Spoiled only by accts payable.

A new bearing and a new seal just because I had one here, and its a viton directional as Pete would prefer, and its DTRMF.

I expect we will fix a few of these , then its over. No big deal.

80800[/snapback]

Youre actually making me want to get a breva. I'm not joking if they are that rock solid except for a bearing I could get some bags and the windsheild. I'd be set.

[Steve G.]

According to Mike at MPH you push it out with a couple of 30mm dowels and biff the new one in. The bearing *is* expensive but I really do think it's likely to be a supply problem FWIW it's the same bearing that Bavarian Money Wasters use in their grotesque final drive so it should be up to the task of a Guzzi if it's used to hauling Claus and Inga over the alps on a shopping trolley that makes a noise like somebody farting the Siberian national anthem underwater. The Bimmer seal os also the same dimensions apart from it's depth, it's apparently 1.5 or so mm deeper, who gives a f*ck? It'll work, but I'd be sourcing a Viton directional seal anyway.

 

I don't think it's a big issue, it's a series of crap bearings bought by some Gloid in accounts. Fix it once and the problem will go away. If not then a few hours with a lathe will cure it.

 

pete

80675[/snapback]

Pete's great. I love his stuff! Bavarian Money Wasters. I'm stealing this one from you Pete!

Ciao, Steve G.

[pete roper]

Hi Pete, no I do not have any surging or queer pipes, what I have is an excess of play in the crownwheel pinion set up, Paul's bike has it but in lesser quantitys and the later ones out of the factory seem to have removed it completely. If you would like to come down to a Solent branch meet and try mine round some mini roundabouts you are welcome. Having ridden bikes for 40 years and Guzzis for 25, I can tell a selector dog from a queer pipe.

Cheers, Gerry.

80790[/snapback]

 

 

Thing is if the CW&P had that much backlash they'd destroy themselves in minutes???? From memory the backlash is supposed to be @.15mm or 6 thou or so. I don't see how the bevels could have that much play in 'em? If you think about it the pinion teeth would have to be almost out of the crownwheel to give any large amount of lash and then they'd chew the edges of the pinion and the tops of the CW in seconds?

 

Have you had the CARC off and felt the backlash? If there is that much there has to be something seriously wrong with it!

 

Pete

[leafman60]

Boy, you guys arent making me feel any better. I am also a BMW rider. I have 2 of them. The big issue with BMW in recent years is the rear drive bearing : the one you are telling me that Guzzi copied!!! What a dark irony. The failures on the BMW are identical. The bearing fails, the cage disintegrates and eats the seal and spills the oil. My 1150 GS did it at 40k miles. I am a member of a local BMW club and 4 of our 12 riders have had rear drive failures. This defect particularly plagued the larger K-LT models and the GS models. A visit to any BMW site (eg IBMWR) will yield much input on this problem. Recently, BMW re-designed the rear drives but one of my Iron Butt rider friends experienced the same rear drive bearing failure on his new R1200GS with the "new" rear drive. A year earlier, his LT left him stranded in Colorado and he bought the 1200GS for "dependability." Anyway, wow. Im afraid the solution to this problem is much more complicated than changing the brand of bearing.

[Guest Nogbad]

Am I to understand this single bearing locates the rear wheel in the CRAP assembly and transfers all the wheel loads to the bike?

 

When you lean the bike over in a bend, the loading regime is rather a complex mix of radial, side and angular loadings with both continuous and shock components. It won't just be a matter of reading a load rating off the bearing tables. Also, the capacity of the bearing to resist overload has a lot to do with the stiffness of its housing. Is the CRAP housing stiff enough?

 

In a conventional 2 bearing arrangement with separation of the 2 bearings the angular (twisting) moment on the bearing is minimised. Not in this case. The bearing loading regime will approximate to that found in crane slewing rings where the element loading swaps sides as the bearing rotates. This is an arduous loading regime and would result in derating from the radial load / speed tables when selecting the unit.

 

I think ideally you want a 2 row angular contact bearing in there for this kind of duty, but there won't be the depth available.

[Guest mphcycles]

Am I to understand this single bearing locates the rear wheel in the CRAP assembly and transfers all the wheel loads to the bike?

 

When you lean the bike over in a bend, the loading regime is rather a complex mix of radial, side and angular loadings with both continuous and shock components. It won't just be a matter of reading a load rating off the bearing tables. Also, the capacity of the bearing to resist overload has a lot to do with the stiffness of its housing. Is the CRAP housing stiff enough?

 

In a conventional 2 bearing arrangement with separation of the 2 bearings the angular (twisting) moment on the bearing is minimised. Not in this case. The bearing loading regime will approximate to that found in crane slewing rings where the element loading swaps sides as the bearing rotates. This is an arduous loading regime and would result in derating from the radial load / speed tables when selecting the unit.

 

I think ideally you want a 2 row angular contact bearing in there for this kind of duty, but there won't be the depth available.

80839[/snapback]

The right side bearing is dual row angular, one may suppose its job is to take those loads?

As for the BMW failures, yes they are well known. The LT has a lot more weight and HP going thru the drive that was designed for the 1100 oilheads. No surprise they die under that Bavarian Manure Wagon.

The r 1200 gs had a rash of failures when its all new design hit the streets.

I dont for sure which bearing was failing or why, but they seem to have gotten a fix for them.