Suspension Update

[Mike Stewart]

Hi all,

 

As you all have read, Lex and I have had our forks and shocks resprung and revalved at LE.

 

The first impression was good, I felt the front forks were a big improvement because my main complaint of the massive fork dive when braking was greatly improved. No more huge fork angle changes. Well thats about the only improvement I have felt. I was still having problems with the rear shock. With every bump the bike wanted to launch me over the bars. I increased compression damping, things were just harsher. I increased rear spring preload to 5mm. static and 19mm. with rider. The over the bar syndrome was better on small bumps but not on the large ones. With every dip in the road, the bike would fall away under me. I increased the rebound damping, things got really weird.

 

Now it seemed like the front end was all messed up. On a rough turn, my bike was all over the place. Felt like the tire pressure was at 100 psi. At high speed turns the bike felt unstable, never like before. It felt like the bike was hinged in the center. What was going on. Checked head bearing, wheel bearings, all suspension bolts, nothing.

 

I made a call to LE and talked to Jim. He was not sure at first what was happening. Then he suggested that I put a nylon tie around the Sach shock shaft and take a ride. I did and found out the nylon tie was being pushed into the shock bumper. The bumper is there to protect the shock from bottoming (metal to metal), I felt the bumper was like an added spring and when a bump was large enough to compress the bumper, the spring and bumper would extend very rapidly and cause my over the bar syndrome. My rear spring sag was in specs. so I experimented by cutting off 1/2 inches of shock bumper (This was my idea, I don't know if Jim would agree). I went for another ride and the nylon tie was 1/8 inch. away from the bumper. The bike still did not feel right. I backed off on the rebound dampening a few clicks and rode again. Boy what a difference. A couple more clicks off rebound and two off the compression. It is now a different bike. The suspension is much more compliant over bumps. When riding over dips in the road there is no more drop off feeling, I can feel the suspension move. This is the first time since I have owned my V11 that I can feel the suspension work for me. The high speed cornering is back and I feel like the bike is on rails. I can't wait for a ride tomorrow!

 

Mike

[docc]

Mike, glad to hear you're getting the bike dialed in!

 

What rear tire size and tire pressures are you running?

 

Ride well, docc

[Lex]

Mike,

 

Glad to hear you found the problem. I don't know about anybody else but we used to call that "packing down". When the rebound is too stiff the shock compresses over the first bump and can't extend before being compressed by the next one which starts a nasty cycle that only ends when the bumps stop or the shock bottoms. As you have seen, it can be really hard to find because it feels like a stiff spring or too much compression damping.

 

For what ever this amateurs opinion is worth, that is one reason I start out with the adjusters soft and work my way up to the stiffer settings as needed. In my experience, starting from the other direction is a strong indicator of a squid.

 

Enjoy Mines road

 

Lex

[al_roethlisberger]

So, any "long term" updates on the front end?

 

...was it worth the money?

 

...equiv to an "Ohlins" ??

 

 

I was planning on getting a Penske or Ohlins out back next Fall/Winter, and if the results for others like yourselves are satisfactory, just get LE to "Ohlin-ize" the front end

 

al

[Lex]

Al,

 

I haven't ridden a Goose with a well set up Ohlins but I can tell you the front of my bike (after the revision) is very good. I'd call it plush but controlled.

 

A semi-related note. Did anybody else watch Speedvision's coverage of the Formula Extreme race at Fontana? They showed a bit of the 250 GP race to open the program. Race winner Rich Oliver took the time to thank Jim Lindemann for making his "catalog" (i.e. stock Yamaha) fork work as well as anything on the track. BTW, LE does not sponsor Oliver, they just work on his bike.

 

I'd say getting the very poorly set-up fork and the shock greatly improved for the same or less than the price of an Ohlins or Penske shock is a pretty good deal.

 

Lex

[Mike Stewart]

Al,

 

I don't think you can get the front forks to work as well as Ohlins with out putting alot of money into them. One of the things all high end fork companys do is to apply a nitride coating to the fork legs, this is very expensive. This coating is an extra $400. at LE. This plus low drag bushings and seals will bring the cost of having your forks redone up in the $1000. range.

 

I have put another 300 miles on the bike since I cut down the rear shock bumper. The bike feels much better and is rideable now. It still can use some improvement. I did order a Penske rear shock last week and I will be doing a follow up after I install it.

 

I went to the Guzzi breakfast this morning and meet Richard that has an 02 Lemans (I did tell him about this web site). Anyway, I noticed the LE stickers on his forks also. I asked how he like them and his responce was I am not really sure. I then asked him what he was feeling and was told that his ride was very stiff and harsh. He has also backed off on his compression and rebound dampening all the way. Anyway, we are both taking our forks off this afternoon and dropping them off to LE for another try. I wil keep you posted.

 

Mike

[al_roethlisberger]

Thanks for additional info Mike

 

...hopefully I'll be able to make a few "Guzzi Breakfasts" again in the near future once I get my bike back on the road

 

 

However, definitely keep me posted on the LE tuning. I have to say though, that if "for $1000" one could get the OEM forks very close to... say an Ohlins front end, that's still a bargain over trying to buy new Ohlins, which are easily $2000+(unless you could find them salvage from a Scura, etc... but how likely is that as most bikes get smushed up front? ).

 

So to that end, if you guys think you can get the LE modifications to perform darned close, even before the "higher end mods" like the the Nitride coating, et al... I'd definitely go for that!

 

...'cause I like my black forks ...which would look pretty darned snazzy with gold Nitride coatings, dont-cha think?

 

Keep us posted!

 

al

[Mike Stewart]

Jaap,

 

Just incase I can't get my front forks setup the way I would like them to preform, can you check with WP to see if they make a fork the will work on the V11 and also a price? Their web page shows the different forks but no application list. There is only one importer in the U.S. I think we might be able to get a group discount if there are any other takers out there. Just a thought, it may be cheaper than going the Ohlins way.

 

Thanks,

Mike

[Guest Jaap]

We'll do

[RichMaund]

You guys make me glad that I don't ride at a level that allows me to tell the fine differences between good suspension and great suspension.

 

I'd have gone broke by now!

[Mike Stewart]

Rich,

 

It must be the rough road surfaces in California.....

 

Mike

[Lex]

Rich,

 

(soapbox mode on)

 

You don't have to ride fast to enjoy good suspension. On my best day (long ago) I was a middle of the pack state level road racer. I'm not even that fast these days. "Back in the day", i.e. when I was racing, I used to get my a** kicked by guys on bikes that didn't handle nearly as well as mine. I can recall nearly crashing watching a very fast guy pass me on the inside of a long corner (the Carousel at Sear Point) riding so hard I could SEE his frame flex on the bumps and potholes that make up the surface of that track. Outside of my dreams I've never been able to ride nearly that well. One of the enduring myths is that only fast guys need good suspension.

 

The fact is, fast guys can ride around problems that stump people like me. In a semi-related reference, anybody remember the adventures of the "Dirt Donks" in Cycle magazine back in the late seventies/ early eighties? The premise was an argument between the poor dirt riders (AKA the Dirt Donk(ey)s) and the good dirtbike riders over who benefited the most from good dirtbikes. The Donks said they didn't need good dirt bikes because they were slow anyway. The good dirtbikes riders kept trying to get the Donks to try a better bike. Eventually, the Donks tried better bikes and discovered they went faster, had more fun and crashed less. On the other side, the better dirt riders could still out ride the Donks because they could ride around the problems caused by poor handling and lack of power in the low end dirt bikes.

 

Back to Guzzi related content, I enjoy my bike's much improved ride at least as much as the ability to keep the tires on the ground in more demanding conditions. I guess what I am trying to say is that everyone benefits for good suspension. No one will enjoy riding his bike more if the ride is rough on bumpy roads or the tires come off the road when you try to brake, corner or accelerate over bumps. If you were closer I'd offer to let you ride my bike but to tell the truth any Japanese bike above the "econo" class will show you how your suspension should work. Once you experience good suspension you'll want it on anything you ride, even a full on luxury touring bike. The enjoyment get riding my "fat bike" (a K1200LT) went up enormously when I had LE re-spring and re-valve the rear shock. When I have the cash I'll upgrade the front (have to replace, that shock can't be re-valved, cheap BMW SOBs) and I'm looking forward to that very much. Mike and I took a fairly expensive route but I'd be willing to bet everyone reading this board to find they would love the improvement from just putting in appropriate springs in the forks. Your bike will ride better AND be more stable in aggressive riding. Other than $120-ish an all around win.

 

(soapbox mode off)

 

Cheers,

 

Lex

[Janusz]

I'd asked before but nobody answered. Risking being a nuisance I try again:

 

1 - does anybody know what spring rate are the stock ones?

2 - which make/rate would be recommended for 230 lbs rider?

3 - since I do not live in California I have to buy/order/have it shipped to BC. What is the best source of new front springs?

4 - I never saw specific Moto Guzzi aftermarket front springs advertised. Do they exist? How to make sure that the new ones will fit?

 

Thanks, John.

[Mike Stewart]

Hi all,

 

European Motorcycle Accessories (EMA) which is located in Livermore California, has great prices on Ohlins and Penske shocks. Check out their web page at: http://www.ema-usa.com/index.shtml They also have the lowest prices on tires that I have seen. The Ohlins rear shock goes for $775 and comes with the correct spring for your weight, it has a remote reservoir and spring preload adjuster. The Penske 8100 shock goes for $750 and is valved and sprung for you weight. It takes 2 to 6 weeks to order the Ohlins and 2 to 3 weeks to have the Penske custom made. I think we might be able to score a discount if we order a few shocks at a time. Let me know and I will check into it. I have already ordered a Penske 8100 last week.

 

Mike

[Mike Stewart]

I'd asked before but nobody answered. Risking being a nuisance I try again:

 

1 - does anybody know what spring rate are the stock ones?

2 - which make/rate would be recommended for 230 lbs rider?

3 - since I do not live in California I have to buy/order/have it shipped to BC. What is the best source of new front springs?

4 - I never saw specific Moto Guzzi aftermarket front springs advertised. Do they exist? How to make sure that the new ones will fit?

 

  Thanks, John.

Hi John,

 

I think your best bet would be to take your forks off and send them out to a suspension specialist. Getting the correct spring rate is one thing but often there has to be a spacer machined to get the right preload. It would be easier if the fork had some kind of preload adjuster built in like the real world. The current going price for springs is $100. US dollars and the labor to install them is not that much. They will also service the fork while it is apart. I only know that the springs that went into my forks are .90 kg, and I weigh in at 200 lbs. butt naked.

 

Are you going to the Guzzi Nationals in Washington this July? Hope to see you there.

 

Mike